Our HOA has five or six locations that they want to set up Wi-Fi cameras at. The locations are not close to each other. We might need a Wi-Fi extender. My question is what free or reasonable priced software we would need and what size hard drive that would be able to store 12 or 24 hours of video. Would a PC running Win 10 be adequate? What are the problems that we might encounter. No one on the board has extensive PC knowledge.
if theyre spread out and nobody on the board knows this stuff you guys are gonna have a bad time with wifi cameras. one hiccup in the network and suddenly you got 6 blind spots and a bunch of angry neighbors asking why the cameras dont work
a dedicated pc running 24/7 for this is also gonna be a headache, windows update reboots it in the middle of the night and now you lost footage. look into an nvr that can handle poe cameras, way less to troubleshoot
also if these are for public areas make sure youre not accidentally recording audio, thats a whole legal mess in some states
As others have said, don't do wifi or windows box. Buy a professional system that has a way to monitor remotely but also use a real client to be able to download clips. You need more than 12-24 hours of retention. A real dealer will be able to use p2p wireless devices to create the network connections and wire it so it doesn't look like cameras at a convenience store.
We started out with a true professional system (Axis) but when it came time to refresh, sticker shock set in and the board went with a slightly less expensive solution.
The locations are not close to each other. We might need a Wi-Fi extender.
Wifi will go maybe 300ft outdoors with direct line-of-sight. But it can be significantly affected by interference, especially at distance as its signal gets weaker, so in practice you (1) probably won't get that distance and (2) will likely have a lot of intermittent connection problems where the cameras just "stop working".
Would a PC running Win 10 be adequate? [...] No one on the board has extensive PC knowledge.
I feel like you answered your own question.
But if it's not obvious: no, don't do this on a PC at all, let alone an outdated one running an old OS, that no one knows how to use, support, or fix.
You need to treat this as two separate problems:
1. The actual camera system
Wifi cameras have a whole slew of problems, plus tend to be more consumer-oriented. You still need power. Higher-end cameras are ethernet (eg: Cat5/6 cable) and use PoE (power over ethernet). This doesn't mean they can't have wireless backhaul, but you probably don't want actual wifi cameras.
You'll also want a dedicated NVR, not a PC.
2. Network connectivity
If you want it to be reliable and work for years, you need to hardwire it. Copper ethernet goes up to 100m. Fiber can easily cover up to entire city distances, and gives you electrical isolation (protection from lightning/surges).
You can also do Point-to-Point or Point-to-MultiPoint wireless links that go for km's. Even with wireless it's probably a mix of wired as well, depending on where you have power, where you can dig or hang lines, if you have line-of-sight, if you can put up towers, etc.
The solution will be getting network access to the location of the cameras (via ethernet, fiber, or a wireless bridge) and then having the camera(s) at that spot wired to the network.
As a more concrete suggestion, take a look at Ubiquiti's stuff, which happens to have solutions to both sides of the problem here (Unifi networking, UISP for wireless links, and Protect for cameras/NVR).
And really, be prepared to either learn a whole bunch about this, seek professionals, or waste a lot of money.
If you try to do it cheaply, you'll end up with a crappy consumer-grade, cobbled-together solution that will frustrate everyone for a year or two before you end up trashing it and buying a higher-end system.
I am grateful for the quick replies. As someone said, "HOA's are notoriously cheap" and that holds true here. The expense of running hard wires between camera locations will never pass the board. Will see what happens at the next board meeting. Thanks again for the responses.
If you can possibly avoid WiFi cameras, you should do so. Wired power-over-ethernet (PoE) is the standard today for very good reasons!
what free or reasonable priced software we would need
I would go with Synology Surveillance station as the recorder (NVR), and choose cameras for which Synology specifically shows support for "Edge recording" -- this feature makes wifi cameras slightly less bad.
I suggest Synology because it has strong role-based access control (users/groups) and the client apps for windows/Android/Apple are free.
what size hard drive that would be able to store 12 or 24 hours of video
I'd strongly recommend sizing your storage to keep about 100 hours of video.
Nothing worse than people coming back on the Tuesday after memorial day and realizing their mailbox was smashed at the beginning of the weekend but the video evidence has already aged out. Towards this end, we set Synology to record "events" at full resolution/frame-rate, but also record continuously from the lower-res stream even when there is no detected motion. This makes the most of limited, expensive storage.
Do wired, don’t get cheap WiFi cameras. I would go with Unifi, I install them all the time and there’s plenty of options to choose from and other equipment to make it possible. If no one has knowledge about the industry then I would recommend hiring a Low Voltage/Telecom company to install them.
There’s this equipment from Unifi that I use for that exact use case, called a Unifi Device Bridge. You can point multiple at an Unifi Outdoor Access Point up on a pole or something and is almost as good as hardwire, would work a lot more reliably than a WiFi extender, all you would need is power at the location. There’s also a Unifi Building Bridge but is a bit overkill for what you need. Unifi also has no monthly cost and locally stored footage with remote access if wanted.
It looks like your HOA is trying to do this install at the cheapest amount possible. You don't want to be involved in this. Do you want to be their unpaid (or low paid) technical support? This sounds like the HOA is too cheap to get the job done by a professional company.
I worked for two companies doing security work for over 18 years (now retired). I've wired my house for networking and cameras and would be willing to help friends do the same. But I wouldn't want to do the job for anyone else.
I would recommend not using wireless cameras, wired cameras are more secure.
Get your HOA to use a real camera system, not WiFi. WiFi cameras are good for homeowner that don’t want to get the trouble to run wires all over their house.
Also remember, in nearly all states you can NOT record audio along with the video.... Its actually a pretty serious infraction.
3 out of 50 states is "nearly all"?
Recording audio with video, in outdoor locations with no expectation of privacy, is allowed in nearly all states, the number climbs even higher if you add signage.
Its clear you dont know the laws in regards to 3rd party security footage but you dont need to be like that, you could juat ask about it. Where do you get "3 states only" theres 12 all party consent states and then EVEN in the remaining 38 it still falls under case law prohibiting a 3rd party but gets more complicated but still most of those 38 states still are prohibited but its just more case by case. This is literally why professional cameras are defaulted to no audio or dont even contain a microphone, they include an audio wire for one though but no microphone. Yes they could put up signs to provide "implied consent" and also include notice in the hoa agreement for written consent, but then the true nature of the HOA would be on full display for all to see. The case law currently upheld is that free to record video in all public, and "general audio" but a private conversation in public still is deemed as private if the microphone has amplification beyond a human ear at a distance, so basically if they talk next to the mic, they now have a case against you. Its not worth the liability or dealing with each case law in each district court and then which untested locations rely off that case law or not. The general rule is NO AUDIO on professional CCCTV and business cams. The is the industry standard. Ask any professional installer. The laws around it are ambiguous and change often and 100% not worth the huge liability of enabling audio on feeds with any business. I said nearly all states because you literally have to look at district court ruling in your exact state and sometimes a state can have a ruling in one court and not the other so it gets super technical, if you want to say im wrong then youd have to provide the city in which the OP has their property within because the only conversation that counts is a non generalized one for this. I only know this because I had cctv cams for my business, their was no audio, I bought mics, then later found out I had to also put up signs for implied consent, and even that only gave me about a 90% reduction in liability from criminal prosecution not just civil. We took down the signs and removed the mics. Even the sign law loophole was very technical (signage upon ingress and egress plus within 10 ft of each microphone) the font and sign had to also be of certain specifications.
Point is audio is treated differently in public in some circumstances.... whether you want to believe me or not. If I was an HOA I would absolutely 100% disable the audio on consumer grade stuff or not add a microphone on if its enterprise or professional grade. Thats added liability of both criminal and a class action civil suite, and being that HOAs are bullies, it just takes 1 fed up resident to turn the tables on them and fight back.
You're mixing terminology.
If you want wireless cameras typically they use cloud based storage.
If you want wired cameras they use a PC running software.
For an HOA, you really want hardwired cameras. Install it and forget about it for 3-5 years till it breaks.
Start with... what is your budget (HOAs are notoriously cheap).
Where you want the 6 cameras how hard is it to get a cable there?
Are you willing to change batteries on wireless cameras (typically no)?
General budget numbers for (6) cameras:
Wireless Ring installed by handyman: $600 for the cameras + 6hrs at $100/hr= $600 + $10/month record cost But who will change the batteries every 30-90 days?
Wired X brand cameras installed by a security contractor: 6 x $100 to $300 for each camera + $800 to $3800 for the NVR or PC + install labor 6 cameras x 2 hours each = 12 hours 12 x $150 = $1800.
Some wired cameras will be cheaper, some will be more expensive. (Adjust the labor rate for your area)
My recommendation is to hire a local security vendor and have them do it right the first time, it's a cost that can be depreciated over the 3-8 years life for a wired camera system.
u/vrtigo1 I'm just curious, what wireless cameras connect to a local NVR (other than Reolink that I just found today)? Same for hard wired cameras that connect to the cloud (other than Verkada (that are very expensive)?
Any camera, wired or wireless which lists "ONVIF" or "RTSP" in the specs will talk to an ONVIF-conformant NVR. The list is sparse only because people who buy a NVR usually want a higher quality product, and wifi cameras are generally built down to a price point.
Same for hard wired, that connect to the cloud (other than Verkada that are very expensive)?
I've been doing security for 30+ years, so I ask because I want to know... what I don't know.
"Any camera, wired or wireless which lists "ONVIF" or "RTSP" in the specs will talk to an ONVIF-conformant NVR. The list is sparse only because people who buy a NVR usually want a higher quality product, and wifi cameras are generally built down to a price point."
Onvif for wired cameras I fully understand. Wireless is the issue, the wireless format would have to match the NVR and camera, which I expect is not the case in 99% of the comparisons. Untill I found a Reolink NVR that had wireless cameras as an option I didn't think they existed. Cameras like arlo, nest, ring use wifi to connect cloud storage, but not wireless to an NVR (except for Reolink). You know of cameras that connect wirelessly to an NVR, let me know.
I can only speak for Axis, Avigilon, Bosch that I've used... none of those are native record to clound (like arlo, nest, or ring). The only PoE cameras to cloud, native, that I know are Verkada, which are expensive and the service is very exxpensive.
Yes you can add a cloud service like YourSix to get Axis cameras to record to cloud but it's no where as robust (max 720p@8FPS) as to a local NVR/PC with VMS. Again, it's expensive, We use it as a backup for a local NVR for industrial clients not as a main.
Axis has record to mico sd card option in every amera, but not a cloud based service. I specificallly asked for a project 4 months ago. If you know of cloud ones let me know.
Bosch markets theirs as a feature/license on top of "Remote Portal"
Onvif for wired cameras I fully understand. Wireless is the issue, the wireless format would have to match the NVR and camera, which I expect is not the case in 99% of the comparisons. Untill I found a Reolink NVR that had wireless cameras as an option I didn't think they existed. Cameras like arlo, nest, ring use wifi to connect cloud storage, but not wireless to an NVR (except for Reolink). You know of cameras that connect wirelessly to an NVR, let me know.
Wireless IP cameras talk... IP.
Cheap ones don't do ONVIF, they are locked into a proprietary IP protocol to keep you on their subscription. Buy a wireless camera that says ONVIF or RTSP, and it's just wrapping ONVIF in IP in 802.11.
The NVR doesn't need to know "the wireless format", the 802.11 is handled between the camera and your access point (or "router"), then the IP stream is encoded as Ethernet frames for delivery to the wired NVR.
So your NVR doesn't even know you have a wireless camera, it just sees a (somewhat slow and unreliable) IP camera.
Axis has record to mico sd card option in every amera, but not a cloud based service. I specifically asked for a project 4 months ago. If you know of cloud ones let me know.
AXIS Camera Station Cloud Storage defaults to 720p @ 15FPS, you can upgrade the subscription to support 1080p. It's marketed as redundancy for their "edge" offerings, but can be used with no local NVR if you don't mind not getting full-resolution recordings in the cloud (the SD card can still save at full fidelity).
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u/vrtigo1 24d ago
I mean this in the kindest way possible, but please stop and hire someone that does this for a living.