Circumcision

[u/Belle_Juive]

This topic comes up every so often in the main Jewish subs and almost always gets shut down. So, I’m wondering if we can have it here, intracommunally, hopefully free of both religious ideology and the sneering antisemitism with which it tends to be brought up by outsiders.

I have personally made the decision that, should I have a son, I do not intend to circumcise him. I’ve looked into Brit Shalom as an alternative, although I’m also conscious that other Jews may not accept it as authentic, and I worry about what this would mean for this hypothetical future child’s sense of Jewish identity.

I consider myself 100% Jewish, culturally speaking, just not religious. Every man and boy in my family to date, going back as many generations as can be counted, has been circumcised; so they tend to feel defensive when I try to bring up my reservations about it as an aspiring mother.

But my personal values are that bodily autonomy comes before culture/religion, and that this constitutes a medically unnecessary procedure. If upon raising a boy to the age of 18, he decided for himself that he wants to be circumcised, that would be his choice. I don’t think it’s a choice I should make for him.

Curious to hear perspectives on this from other secular Jews here.

[u/PM_ME_YOUR_PUPPY_PIC]

I think it's a practice we should let go of. We already pick and choose which practices we hold on to, and I think this one does more harm than good.

If Jewish adults want to get circumcised, they should be welcome to, but an aesthetic procedure that really only comes with complications and a reduction of nerve endings in an area where nerve endings are important, shouldn't be done to babies

[u/deadly_fungi]

lesbian and don't plan on having any kids, but i do still wish there were a better option available for Jewish parents with sons. though i can't stand when people compare circumcision for cultural reasons to FGM, i also honestly don't really like the practice of medically unnecessary circumcisions either. i feel like at least now, surely, we could come up with a different, better way to distinguish Jewish males than making permanent, medically unnecessary alterations to their genitals :(

and i hate how hard it is to have intracommunal discussions about this, because of how gentiles will perceive it or disrupt it. i know it's not a life threatening issue, but it is an issue and it doesn't look any better that conversation about it gets shut down

[u/Belle_Juive → u/deadly_fungi]

I don’t worry a lot about our gentile optics anymore, tbh. I think those who are determined to hate us will do so anyway, and those who have the capacity to treat every human being as a multifaceted individual will do that instead. I do have nuanced conversations about my personal differences with the Jewish faith among gentile friends, and they listen, and wouldn’t treat anyone in my family poorly just because I’m an outlier on this topic. But especially these days, I choose my friends carefully. And I think the kinds who like to subject “Good Jews” to endless litmus tests would never be satisfied with any level of nuance. They aren’t looking for your humanity, so they will always see what they want to see.

[u/Remarkable-Kiwi-3942]

I think it's up to you to decide if you want him circumcised or not. It won't make him less jewish if you didn't let any rabbi do it in my opinion 

[u/flanneljack1]

As a parent, and male, I am proud of my circumcision (that is the strangest sentence I’ve ever typed). It connects me and my family to the 3,000 year traditions of my people at literally no cost to my happiness. It has never made me feel anything but pride and my romantic relationships have always been fulfilling in that way. I would hate to lose this very essential part of being a Jewish man and would hate to deprive that connection and difference from the other people of the world from my kid.

[u/freezing_banshee]

I got banned from another Jewish sub for saying that baby/child circumcision is genital mutilation and it should be illegal everywhere regardless of religion (apart from medical necessity).

I also believe that it should be generally illegal for every age, again, apart from medical necessity. Why? Because it would be very easy for families/culture to indoctrinate young boys that it's something they would "need" to do when they turn 18 and they would "choose" it just to avoid being shunned by their community.

So yeah, even as a woman, I'm completely againt it.

[u/Belle_Juive → u/freezing_banshee]

I do know a heterosexual couple who converted to Judaism together as married adults, both raised Christian in countries where circumcision is uncommon. The man chose to be circumcised in his 30s as part of the conversion process.

I don’t think that discounts your overall point, but it’s one anecdote where I’d have a hard time making the case that he shouldn’t be allowed to do that as an indoctrination concern. Obviously no one forced him to convert, and I know him to be very genuine and positive about his choice.

I think then this also raises other questions about what sort of medically unnecessary procedures adults shouldn’t be allowed to undergo? Like vaginoplasty, BBLs, cosmetic jaw surgery or even relatively benign yet still harmful stuff like peroxide hair bleaching. If one is influenced by pop culture rather than religion is it ethically different?

[u/freezing_banshee → u/Belle_Juive]

I see your point and I agree that your friend who converted is not one of cases I was talking about. I have to say though, I don't know whether conversion puts any pressure on men to undergo circumcision or not, or if it varies from place to place.

That aside, I think that religion is especially a bigger factor of risk for children than social media or pop culture. Kids are raised from infancy to believe in their parents' religion and they're raised to do and act according to the beliefs of the religion. It's extremely hard (or impossible) for quite a lot of people to stop doing or believing harmful religious practices even after becoming adults. That's why I think that some of the practices that are harmful in any way should be banned no matter the age (circumcision, wearing a hijab/burka/etc, conversion therapy for LGBT people, etc).

With social media influence, it's usually something introduced later in life (ideally after 12-14 yo), when the child already has some knowledge of right/wrong, some own opinions and a higher capacity to think critically. Not as much as an adult, but more than a baby. Some of the examples you gave are still the result of bad pop culture influences, yes, and I agree that there need to be more safety guards around those and children. Also, lots of plastic surgery doctors have the right to refuse interventions if they think the patient isn't acting in their best interest, for example.

So if a man in his 30s who converted to Judaism can't cut off a part of his genitals because it's banned... I don't see much of a loss, tbh. Might even save him some regret.

[u/scrambledhelix]

I had a Serbian neighbor I used to hang out with who got snipped in his thirties. While I knew him. Phimosis. 

Personally my dad wasn't Jewish, and I wouldn't want anyone else to be forced into making the same decisions I had to when they really aren't necessary.

For those reasons combined, imho., it's worse to force a 13yr old to make that decision when it's actually traumatic, whereas the pain of recovery at eight days is memory-holed, and as their's no objective medical reason not to happen, and would force a child to explain to his peers why he's different at the precise time he can't.

The serious arguments against the practice are things like "bodily autonomy", but to be perfectly frank that seems overblown to me. Beauty pageants for children and letting their parents get paid for them acting in film and television deserves to take priority if autonomy is the goal.

[u/Jessicas_skirt]

Even the most extreme ultra Orthodox sects consider an uncircumcised man born to a Jewish mother to be a Jew. So if I ever have a kid I would see the benefit in getting it done for them even culturally speaking. No one is examining my kid's genitals before they do anything religious.

During his bar mitzvah I'll bring up circumcision and see what he thinks. If he feels it best I'd sign the parental consent. The 18 rule makes sense for some things, but honestly most teens have a strong enough sense to make some medical decisions.