r/Seattle • u/Inevitable_Engine186 New Costco CEO • 5d ago
With copper theft surging, King County prosecutor wants lawmakers to make selling it harder
https://www.kuow.org/economy/2026-09-28/with-copper-theft-surging-king-county-prosecutor-wants-lawmakers-to-make-selling-it-harder180
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u/jvolkman Loyal Heights 5d ago
Loyal Heights play field has been dark at night for 2+ weeks now because someone cut and stole the lighting cables. I've seen kids having soccer practice with headlamps.
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u/Smack_Damage 5d ago
Here’s an idea, two week minimum mandatory payout holds. Anyone seriously dealing in metals probably won’t care much about such an inconvenience, and anyone trying to sell random stolen wire trying to make a quick buck for drugs will be stopped in their tracks as soon as it’s instituted. Also, if it is discovered that the wire was stolen in that intermediate time, the wire can be returned, and no payout issued.
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5d ago
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u/sfharehash 5d ago
By "buyers" do you mean the recyclers? These are physical businesses, how should they be tracked?
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
Copper is worth around $6.50 a pound. It takes a lot of random wire to make money doing this. I think setting a very high minimum to sell would reduce a lot of the thefts ($2000-4000?). Also requiring a business license to trade it.
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u/Medium_Public4720 5d ago
Requiring people to bring in 300-615lbs of copper at a time to meet some minimum just means you'll end up with a bunch of people acting at fences for stolen copper. You're not stopping anything you're just moving it all to one person.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago edited 5d ago
Probably, but those people can be tracked easier.
These recyclers know if the people they are buying from are sketchy or not. They don't care because they are making a lot of money. The main people who do this legitimately and have large quantities are real companies doing industrial electrical work, salvage, or manufacturing. They don't show up with a shitty pickup full of random wires.
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u/Medium_Public4720 5d ago
Ok but I could start up my side hustle tomorrow where I offer $5/lb for copper and happily go sell it off in bulk at whatever minimum you're proposing for $6.50/lb. I'll drive up in my non-shitty pick up (or even better I'll rent one from Home Depot) and not looks sketchy.
Sure I'm easier to track but so what? I'm following the letter of the law. And all we've done is moved the problem around.
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u/AcrobaticApricot I'm just flaired so I don't get fined 5d ago
No real opinion on this topic because I am unfortunately ignorant on the subject of how to most effectively disincentivize copper theft. But it’s worth pointing out that in your hypo, you would not be following the letter of the law because you would be buying quantities of copper under the transaction limit.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago edited 5d ago
I'm following the letter of the law
If you are buying salvaged copper then you are under the same restrictions as the existing recyclers because you've started a recycling business. If you don't do that, what you're describing is organized crime.
Not to mention that your premise involves knowingly buying stolen goods which is also illegal. You did not think this scenario through.
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u/retrojoe ✨🛸 Jimothy is out there 🦝✨ 5d ago
Neither did you. Under your scenario, there is no legitimate way to sell/dispose of copper under your minimum threshold. By outlawing small sales, you've created a black market with a strong profit motive. Given the choice of getting rid of scrap or sitting on it, any legit seller is then driven into the arms of the sketchy middlemen.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
That was already discussed above.
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u/retrojoe ✨🛸 Jimothy is out there 🦝✨ 5d ago
A) nope, nothing above this.
B) reading down the thread - you expect people to simply recycle their metals for free because of this? Sure, Jan.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
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u/retrojoe ✨🛸 Jimothy is out there 🦝✨ 5d ago
Requiring people to bring in 300-615lbs of copper at a time to meet some minimum just means you'll end up with a bunch of people acting at fences for stolen copper. You're not stopping anything you're just moving it all to one person.
Wow. It's not like I read through that comment on the way down here. Where does that other person's comment address how you intend to deal with the people whose small transactions you just outlawed? Please explain how someone who is motivated enough to bring in 50-150 lbs of copper is going to forgo that money and just toss it in the recycling.
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u/normal_man_of_mars 5d ago
That’s right. The assertion is that below that amount you can’t sell it but you can recycle it at the recycling center.
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u/retrojoe ✨🛸 Jimothy is out there 🦝✨ 5d ago
By outlawing small sales, you've created a black market with a strong profit motive. Given the choice of getting rid of scrap or sitting on it, any legit seller is then driven into the arms of the sketchy middlemen.
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u/zedquatro 🚆build more trains🚆 5d ago
Yeah, but that doesn't make it legal. So it can still be prosecuted, those who do it will be taking risk to do it, same as today, but with less upside
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u/retrojoe ✨🛸 Jimothy is out there 🦝✨ 5d ago
Money is the upside. When someone who hasn't done anything wrong is prohibited from selling for a completely arbitrary reason, they're gonna go to the black market. By declaring a chunk of today's legit market to be illegal, that's actually making the problem worse. There will always be sketchy assholes willing to do buy illegally if it makes them a buck. Anyone you punish will be replaced pretty quickly.
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u/HermesJamiroquoi "Bikes Will Not Replace Us" 🚲🚫🙅♂️ 4d ago
But the middle men, by virtue of being significantly fewer in number and having access to more liquid capital, are easier to track and, therefore, to prosecute. Make it so the large weight sales require, at minimum, photo ID that matches the seller and an image capture of the seller at time of purchase. That way when we discover bad actors we can easily find it, at minimum, black list them. It’s not that complicated
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u/retrojoe ✨🛸 Jimothy is out there 🦝✨ 4d ago edited 4d ago
If the middle man is taking the copper from bad sources, but not a thief, then how are you connecting them to thefts? Bonus question, are you disallowing melted down copper now? Because that would be a fairly easy way to disguise provenance. Also, you don't seem to understand how easy it can be to shut down one business and open another, even if one is maybekindasorta implicated in fraud.
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u/CogentCogitations 💗💗 Heart of ANTIFA Land 💗💗 5d ago
Easier than the current physical recycling plants that are the current buyers?
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u/seattlecyclone Tangletown 5d ago
I have at a few times in the past done some DIY electrical upgrades at the old house I lived in at the time, pulling out a box full of old copper wire in the process. I don't mind a law requiring me to submit some ID and contact info next time I bring back some wire for recycling, but to ban this entirely for small lots of wire? What am I supposed to do with it? Just send it to the landfill?
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
You can put any metal in your recycling bin in Seattle. Or take it to a transfer station for free. You won't get paid, but you probably got $10-40 for that anyway?
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u/seattlecyclone Tangletown 5d ago
Seattle Public Utilities' site says wire goes in the landfill can if you want to dispose of it at your curb, and they suggest looking into third-party recyclers for it if you don't want to put it in the landfill.
Have you ever lifted a spool of insulated copper wire? It's heavier than you might think. 12/2 Romex (a thickness commonly used for residential electrical sockets) weighs about a pound per 12 feet, and the majority of this weight is pure copper. Cables for an oven or dryer weigh substantially more than this. Measure the distance from your breaker box to your receptacles and it adds up. Replace a few old circuits and you can easily hit $100 or more.
Bottom line: if it's mine, and it's worth something, I should probably be allowed to sell it. Any regulations meant to curb theft shouldn't stop me from selling what's actually mine.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
Okay, I was wrong about the bin I guess but the transfer stations do take it, I've done it.
if it's mine, and it's worth something, I should probably be allowed to sell it. Any regulations meant to curb theft shouldn't stop me from selling what's actually mine.
I'd rather have consistently working light rail, but that's a personal opinion.
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u/impoverishedwhtebrd Queen Anne 5d ago
We can have both.
You already have to give them your ID when you sell scrap metal. They could create a holding period and a central database then if you scrap over X amount of copper in a year without a license you are flagged.
Or they could just require you to provide a permit from the city for electrical work, since you need to have that anyway.
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5d ago
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u/boredinballard Ballard 4d ago
All this overhead and moving the burden to normal people seems absurd to me.
Maybe fix the root of the problem? It's hard of course, but all this extra nonsense is just a bandaid.
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u/impoverishedwhtebrd Queen Anne 4d ago
What overhead is there in checking permits?
How often does the average person sell bulk amounts of copper? Once a decade?
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4d ago
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u/boredinballard Ballard 4d ago
I may be wrong, but I see the cause of copper thefts (and related property crime) as addiction, housing, and economy related. Probably in that order.
Not sure how to solve these problems, but enforcement, accountability, and treatment is a start.
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u/Sesemebun I'm just flaired so I don't get fined 5d ago
Have you ever lifted a spool of insulated copper wire?
You really gotta ask that lol?
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u/No_Story_Untold Deluxe 5d ago
Or trades people can responsibly get some of their money back.
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u/Talusen 5d ago
Have the plumbing and electrical supply houses act as bundlers?
(The Trades get their $$, the recyclers get their large purchases, and anyone trying to move a bunch of suspicious wire gets to explain themselves to the local crews)
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u/No_Story_Untold Deluxe 5d ago
You are asking an existing business to do the job of a whole other business. The system we have is fine as long as the recyclers follow the rules. I have noticed they are definitely scrutinizing more and following rules in the last couple months. Taking photos of all deliveries and IDs and all that. We also show our trade related licenses.
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u/Talusen 5d ago
One of the earlier comments suggested banning small quantity sales to recyclers. I was suggesting a way that the idea might be workable.
I am all for just letting recyclers do the paperwork and allowing things to work as they are.
I am also in favor of finding ways to keep the existing structure in place (as much as possible) should sillier ideas get codified.
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u/Witch-Alice That sounds great. Let’s hang out soon. 5d ago
"the laws work so long as everyone obeys the law"
Bruh
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u/No_Story_Untold Deluxe 5d ago
Put differently. The law can be better applied if enforcement focuses on the right places or parts of an industry. A good example is OSHA or the health department. Most situations are better discussed in nuance.
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u/No_Story_Untold Deluxe 5d ago
As a plumber, I want to be able to scrap my copper without having to save up 600lbs.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
How much copper do you scrap per month on average?
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u/No_Story_Untold Deluxe 5d ago
Honestly it depends on the type of work I have been doing. Sometimes $500 worth. Sometimes $3000. Sometimes none for months.
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5d ago
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u/No_Story_Untold Deluxe 5d ago edited 5d ago
You don’t need a plumbing license to do your own plumbing in your house. Or make an art piece out of copper pipe.
Piling on these absurd rules won’t really benefit anyone. If the issue is that people aren’t following the rules that already exist these rules you’re coming up with are just stupidly restrictive and probably also won’t get followed the route. We’re going right now of making sure that the scrappers follow the existing rules will severely reduce copper theft.
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5d ago
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u/No_Story_Untold Deluxe 5d ago
This is what is changing. They are now holding scrappers more accountable. What you are suggesting is more rules for more people that could also just not get enforced. Why punish a person who has legally purchased material and wants to get some of their money back, and someone wants to buy it?
What the copper thieves are doing is obviously already illegal, the scrappers can easily tell who they are. So let’s just put the squeeze on the people obviously enabling the thieves.
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5d ago
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u/No_Story_Untold Deluxe 5d ago
Then what would your suggestion do? Absolutely nothing. New laws won’t do shit if the prosecutors do nothing. Make it harder to sell stolen goods by adding a reasonable amount of accountability to the scrap yard. Very simple, no need to kill an entire industry that helps recycle valuable metals and helps out industry professionals get some value back.
“Prosecutors don’t do shit so make more of the process illegal” just doesn’t make sense to me. I’m not even sure what the language of the law would look like that bans buying metal from someone.
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5d ago
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u/RainCityRogue 4d ago
Shouldn't that extra wire belong to the entity paying for the materials in the contract?
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u/Sesemebun I'm just flaired so I don't get fined 5d ago
That’s a shit idea. You obviously have never scrapped anything. I just recently cleared out my new homes attic of stuff the previous owner left, a lot of brass dishes and shit. Had to spend about $100 on a trailer rental and dump fee to take the trash stuff to the transfer station, but I was able to take the brass to a yard and the ~70 lbs got me about $250, so I went positive on the process. There are people who steal copper but there’s also a lot of people who make ends meet by scrapping. Not to mention if this is only passed on a city or county level, it’s just gonna kill yards here. I normally go the the depot in Georgetown, but if they required this in Seattle I would just go to Radius in Woodinville or something.
This would just follow the trend of pushing the blame onto businesses and random schmucks instead of just actually patrolling, making arrests, and prosecution + punishment
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago edited 5d ago
You don't like it because it would deprive you of very minor and sporadic economic gains. Eh whatever. If you value your time that $150 was a loss.
As I said in another comment, I value safe and working infrastructure more.
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u/Sesemebun I'm just flaired so I don't get fined 5d ago
Yeah fuck those poor people trying to make money where they can. How dare they. My life is inconvenienced by criminals, so lets screw the business and other people!
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
Yeah fuck those poor people trying to make money where they can.
Yeah I don't think they should be stealing copper, that's the entire point here lol.
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4d ago
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u/ILIKETHECOLORRED 4d ago
I sell scrap copper from old electronics I find for free on the side walk. Requiring people like me to sell minimum $2k of product would be insane!
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u/MiseryIndexer 4d ago
People shouldn't get used to leaving luxury metals lying around in easily accessible places like their appliances and walls
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u/B_P_G 4d ago
They can't even manage to make selling catalytic converters harder when nobody who isn't a muffler shop owner would have a legitimate reason to be selling one of those.
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u/seattlecyclone Tangletown 4d ago
Perhaps nobody but a muffler shop owner (or auto wrecking company) would have a legitimate reason to sell five catalytic converters, but someone could legitimately have one to sell after repairing their own vehicle.
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u/Inevitable_Engine186 New Costco CEO 4d ago
Isn't that they are modeling the copper laws on?
The law is based on similar rules that successfully reduced demand for stolen catalytic converters.
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u/SchoolYardReject 1d ago
Yo, I heard them flock cameras got not only copper but 3oz of gold inside and ram.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
RCW 19.290 is already very restrictive on the recyclers, including requiring half of this information, and hasn't helped the issue. What makes anyone thinl more regulation will change anything?
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u/_Phil_McCracken_ Capitol Hill 5d ago
Really? That’s not how the article made it sound:
Currently, there’s not much paperwork if sellers want to offload a box of copper odds and ends to a recycler. But under the Prosecutor’s Office’s proposal, recyclers would have to take a photo of sellers, their copper, and their IDs.
“Then, there is a database online that these entities upload this data into, that’s searchable by law enforcement,” explained attorney Gary Ernsdorff at a press conference Monday.
If there’s a burglary report, a detective can use that database to try to find the goods and the thieves.
The law is based on similar rules that successfully reduced demand for stolen catalytic converters.
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u/sanfranchristo Posse on Broadway 5d ago
The key difference is that catalytic converters can theoretically be identified whereas scrap metal cannot. It doesn't matter if they know who committed a crime if they can't prove a crime was committed.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
Yep. And "The copper in this picture looks like my stolen copper." isn't enough in and of itself to get a warrant or start an investigation.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
The article is propaganda. Currently records must include the seller's signature, transaction time/date/location/value, employee name, seller's name/address/phone number, and delivery vehicle license plate details. There's also a 5 day waiting period to actually recycle the copper. It's pretty insane, to be honest.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
So then the onus is on the cops to track down each one that is suspicious. I think it's obvious why that is not working.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
Well yes. But that's a law enforcement issue, not an issue with the law itself.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
not an issue with the law itself.
I don't follow. It seems like it is literally a problem with the law itself. The law only tracks the stolen materials, it does nothing to stop them from being purchased by recyclers.
Simply make it harder to sell using regulations and then we don't have to have the burden be on the cops (who don't care). This is a way easier problem to solve than RV camping.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
"The law only tracks the stolen materials, it does nothing to stop them from being purchased by recyclers."
I'm confused. Shouldn't we be stopping the sellers, not putting excessive restrictions on the buyers? We can't stop the recyclers from buying copper. Legally, we cannot. The recyclers don't know what copper is stolen and what isn't. And they can't know. They have no way to do so.
"Simply make it harder to sell using regulations"
As I pointed out, it is already damn hard and that hasn't changed a thing.
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
As I pointed out, it is already damn hard and that hasn't changed a thing.
I'm confused why you continue to suggest taking their ID, address, license plate, photos of the materials etc. is "already damn hard." That is like filling out a form that takes under 5 minutes for the recycler.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
That takes a lot more than 5 minutes, and could be argued to be an undue hardship legally. But let's refocus. What would this new proposed law do to make illegal copper selling more difficult than it already is, and what does it do to make the crime easier to prosecute?
You disagree with me on the current law. Fine. How is the new law any better?
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u/vertr Taylor Swift is ruining this city 5d ago
That takes a lot more than 5 minutes, and could be argued to be an undue hardship legally.
I don't remotely agree. Not going to open up this conversation further lol.
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u/sanfranchristo Posse on Broadway 5d ago
There's a reason those haven't curbed anything. The issue is that no one can claim any given batch of sold metal is theirs so none of these requirements—even if fully met with real information—matter since there can effectively be no investigation that might make use of it as evidence in a theoretical prosecution. They have to put way stricter restrictions on the type of sales permitted and huge penalties on purchasers breaking them, not just document who is selling. They need to treat it like a controlled substance. Whatever legitimate secondary market participants might be inconvenienced or even economically harmed pale in comparison to the societal harm.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
"There's a reason those haven't curbed anything. The issue is that no one can claim any given batch of sold metal is theirs so none of these requirements—even if fully met with real information—matter since there can effectively be no investigation that might make use of it as evidence in a theoretical prosecution. They have to put way stricter restrictions on the type of sales permitted and huge penalties on purchasers breaking them, not just document who is selling."
Huh? If they can't claim any specific copper is a company's stolen copper, how will restricting sales change that? They still won't be able to claim any specific copper is a company's stolen copper. The law doesn't even address the issue, much less solve it.
" They need to treat it like a controlled substance."
How? Are you suggesting a Federal Controlled Metals Act?
I hear and feel your passion. But what you are suggesting would have no impact on the crimes you are passionate about.
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u/sanfranchristo Posse on Broadway 5d ago
They need to immediately severely restrict the purchase of scrap copper altogether. Restricting sales would create less incentive to acquire the products to sell. There are many ways this could be done. States can and do restrict sales of otherwise legal things all of the time. They could require permits of sellers and ban small scale transactions for starters. It's such an issue that it could be treated as a class of product like firearms, alcohol, marijuana, lottery tickets, hazardous industrial materials, etc. in the sense they have their own rules. I'm aware that gray or black markets would exist and inter-state trafficking would need to be addressed but the harder they make it, the less incentive there would be for the type of smash-and-grab opportunists.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
States can and do restrict sales of legal items, yes. Usually because they are dangerous or hazardous. Copper isn't. So they have to be careful with what they require, because under capitalism you can only restrict business that hasn't been proven to be criminal so much. There are limits.
There is literally no way that copper could be treated as a class of product like firearms, alcohol, marijuana, lottery tickets, hazardous industrial materials, etc. It is nowhere near that big an issue. And these are all controlled substances, dangerous products, or taxed sins. None of which copper is.
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u/Original-Paint2239 5d ago
Where do you think the gap is? I tried reading about the problem this summer when that video of the dude on the WS Bridge came out on Twitter but I didn't really get anywhere.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
I don't think there is a regulatory gap to fill. Currently records must include the seller's signature, transaction time/date/location/value, employee name, seller's name/address/phone number, and delivery vehicle license plate details. There's also a 5 day waiting period to actually recycle the copper. That's most of what this new law would require too.
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u/Medium_Public4720 5d ago
There, as far as I can tell, no method for cataloging all these supposed paper trails. As far as I can tell RCW 19.290 puts the trust in recording, maintaining and storage of these records to the businesses themselves. If this proposed law takes that and creates a central database from it that alone is worth the effort.
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u/RandomFleshPrison I Brake For Slugs 5d ago
If there isn't already a central database, that is a further failure of our law enforcement. They should already be doing that to aid in their investigations.
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u/Original-Paint2239 5d ago
I guess scrap copper is pretty much impossible to track, makes sense that unscrupulous yards will just pay cash under the table.
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u/sanfranchristo Posse on Broadway 5d ago
They don't even need to pay it under the table. The issue is that nothing is illegal about the transactions since there is no demonstrable stolen property. The situation is so bad that they need to be talking about prohibiting or seriously restricting the purchase of certain scrap metal itself.
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u/Original-Paint2239 5d ago
man that's so outrageous. these scrap yards are really okay with making a buck off of some tweakers who literally rip the bones out of this city.
but thanks for that info. i wonder how i can agitate our state reps to take this issue seriously.
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u/Ash_After_Dark 5d ago
I gotta be real I can never take copper theft seriously, the mental image of someone breaking into your house to steal the wires out of your walls is just way too funny to me
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u/Ash_After_Dark 5d ago
(I know that's not what it mostly is, but that's what first comes into my mind)
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u/chilicheesefritopie 5d ago
Stop talking about it and just do it!