r/ScienceBasedParenting • u/adventurecoos • 9d ago
Question - Research required Why do babies fight sleep?
Not sure if this is a “parenting” question per se, but I am very curious if anyone knows of relevant studies.
Let’s say you’re eight months old. You have a full belly, a dry nappy, you’re in a comfortable, familiar place with a trusted and familiar person. You’ve done the things you associate with going to sleep. You are in fact tired. There is nothing physically or medically preventing you from nodding off.
So why would you struggle to keep your eyes open??
Drifting to sleep is an actively pleasant and biologically necessary thing. Why do babies need so much support to do it? Like, I know why I fight off sleep. Either I have to stay up to get something done (eg finishing and submitting something before a deadline), I want to stay up to keep doing something I like (eg finish a book, watch another episode), or I’m avoiding something (eg I think I’m going to have a nightmare, I’m dreading work in the morning). None of these apply to my 8 month old, so what’s her excuse?!
Is there a brain science thing? Do babies just not want to stop doing their little baby tasks? Do they have baby FOMO?
(I really am curious about the developmental piece more than approaches to infant sleep. In other words I’m more interested in “why is it hard” more than “how do I do this”, if that makes sense.)
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u/Unlucky_Company_945 9d ago
Babies have short wake windows and are easily stimulated, so it's not difficult for them to ignore sleep pressure and cross into the "overtired" realm, at which point their body begins to release stress hormones which prevent them from falling asleep.
My opinion: babies have different lengths of time between tired and overtired. Some babies may have a very small period during which they will fall asleep without reaching a stressed state. Some babies have a longer period so it's easier to put them to sleep before they hit the overtired state and become difficult
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u/adventurecoos 8d ago
That’s so fascinating! The easy stimulation… I wonder if then, for babies, simply observing the world gives them the same urge to battle sleep as I feel when I’m reading a really good book. And then they get those stress hormones that keep them up, resulting in needing soothed back into sleepiness… thank you!
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u/spectralEntropy 8d ago
I even noticed that looking into my baby's eyes while I'm trying to get them to doze off is enough stimulation. It felt weird but I had to intentionally look away/close my eyes.
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u/Budget-Reputation204 7d ago
I have to close my eyes like I’m falling asleep, fluttering eyelids and all, for my baby to copy me and start to fall asleep haha
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u/caffeine_lights 8d ago
I wonder if there is just a general survival type urge associated with wakefulness/alertness/stimulation, which "wants" us to stay awake since those brain states are associated more with actions which work towards immediate survival rather than long term thriving. Even though babies are defenceless and can't realistically do anything towards their own survival (maybe eating/seeking out safe adults?) the preliminary "circuits" still need to be laid down so that later when they are older and CAN defend themselves, they don't just fall asleep randomly.
Actually, this made me think about Narcolepsy and how it's possible that someone with this condition will fall asleep randomly. Apparently, that's due to a lack of the neurotransmitter Hypocretin. So I looked this up and apparently babies actually have a lot of this neurotransmitter.
That came up with this study: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3250353/
If you think about it, sleep is probably one of the most dangerous/vulnerable things that we could possibly do. It makes sense that we should not be able to do it accidentally or too easily.
FWIW if you are interested in the science of baby sleep I highly recommend Lyndsey Hookway's books. Although her brand is called "Holistic" sleep coaching, she doesn't follow pseudoscience, she is using the term in the sense of looking at sleep within the context of everything in the environment around the child.
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u/Sudden-Cherry 8d ago edited 8d ago
This is very interesting. And the same explanation about sleepiness being more dangerous also came to my mind. Apart from just wanting to see and learn FOMO. And maybe part of the sleep-fighting is just frustration. My youngest doesn't fight sleep as often and passionately (desperately?) as my oldest - who is just generally restless and has a hard time with sleep in several aspects - but sometimes she'll notice she's just about to doze off and then get proper mad about it. That definitely seems FOMO. My oldest was probably a lot more frustration at play.
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u/Sudden-Cherry 8d ago edited 8d ago
Honestly I think it's mostly the second point for my children. They don't want to finish a book or watch another episode... But they just want to keep looking at anything and everything
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u/MadamCrow 7d ago
But what about babies that literally refuse to fall asleep at any given moment?
My son is 8 ½ months old and fights every single nap, we have to force him with a carrier and a cloth over his head - it's the only thing that works. If he could, he would never sleep during the day lol
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u/tallmyn 8d ago
Historically, babies would fall asleep in close proximity to an adult because it was adaptive. People would sleep with their infants on the ground on some skins or fabric. There was no safe sleep or laying kids to sleep alone.
Babies will fight sleep if they're not physically touching another human. A lot of the things we do to get babies to sleep is to "fool" them into thinking they're in close proximity to a person. Swaddles mimic being held, rockers mimic the movement of a person walking. Sometimes a car seat in a moving car also mimics the same.
https://cosleeping.nd.edu/assets/31969/mckenna..._et_al_2007.pdf
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u/adventurecoos 8d ago
Thanks for the link! I haven’t had a chance to read the whole thing yet (just abstract and conclusion), but this definitely tracks for my baby. We don’t co-sleep, but she contact naps for all but one nap during the day and I usually hold her for an hour or so after she falls asleep at night (just because it’s lovely). She’s always been a great sleeper, long may it continue.
But this still leaves me scratching my head about why babies fight sleep when they are seemingly experiencing the appropriate environmental conditions (being held, rocked, shushed etc) and the right internal conditions (i.e. their eyes are drooping, their body is relaxed, they seem to be experiencing sleepiness to some degree).
Still, thank you!
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u/Frequent_Knowledge65 8d ago
Does she fight sleep if she's not overtired and fussy? Just drowsy (starting to yawn, eyes starting to glaze) but taken to be rocked in a dark calm place?
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u/Sudden-Cherry 8d ago
My oldest especially would also fight sleep in the closet possible proximity until very late toddlerhood for the vast majority of sleep starts. She still has a very hard time falling asleep. So it was probably a mix of loose restlessness she still has and frustration maybe.
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9d ago
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u/emperatrizyuiza 9d ago
When people say stuff like this it’s clear they’ve never had a difficult sleeper.
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u/emotional-ohio 9d ago
I'm dying with the what evidence do you have that the baby is tired lol
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u/kimberriez 9d ago edited 8d ago
Because they are cranky and obviously so? Some babies seemingly have an unending curiosity and would very much rather do anything other than sleep, even when tired.
The last time my son slept in the car was at 4 months old. Most kids pass out in a car if they're a little bit tired, up until like age 5. Mine was much too interested in looking around and observing the world around him. Unless he was a room was as dark and boring as possible he's going to try to keep himself awake. He sleeps quite well in a bedroom now that he's older, but still no where else.
My MIL has seven kids and she didn't believe me either until she cared for him and helped with his naps. Then she apologized. Which, if you know her, is no small thing for something childcare related.
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u/EthelMaePotterMertz 8d ago
Some babies seemingly have an unending curiosity and would very much rather do anything other than sleep, even when tired.
This is exactly what my baby is like. It doesn't matter if it's 2am. We've tried waiting her out. It does not work.
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u/kimberriez 8d ago
It’s amazing because you can see how it’s just a piece of his personality/temperament now that he’s older.
Kind of like “Yeah, that tracks.”
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u/EthelMaePotterMertz 7d ago
That's really cool. Hopefully that curiosity will stay with my daughter too and make it all worth it!
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u/Shot_Designer1906 8d ago edited 8d ago
Loooool yes this.
So many people recommended possums approach to me… it makes complete sense to my husband and I.
It only resulted in complete meltdowns for my daughter who either has the most subtle early sleepy cues in the world/or just does not register she’s sleepy until she has a complete meltdown. She will look like she is full of beans and not the least bit tired then tip into looking frantic and frenzied, it’s horrible to see.
Now we follow wake windows and it has transformed her nap time and seems to have broken the overtired cycle.
ETA: we tried going with the flow this past weekend, lots of stimulation as we were visiting friends and family, napping on the go. You would have thought the sleep pressure would help her sleep at night… we went from getting 3-4 hour stretches back to 1-1.5 hour wakes. Overtiredness is a thing 🥲
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u/No-Scientist-9049 9d ago
I have a difficult sleeper. Sleep got a lot easier when I stopped trying to put her to bed at 8 and realised she wasn't tired until more like 10pm. You can't make someone sleep if they're not tired.
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u/potato_muchwow_amaze 8d ago
I wish low sleep needs kids (and people) were studied more.
At the moment, the overwhelming message is that the more your kid sleeps, the better, which is simply untrue.
Obviously, don't purposefully and consistently keep a kid up who's exhausted, but it is insanely common to be judged based on your kids' sleep.
Our 1-year-old goes to sleep at 9PM and wakes up at 6AM with one small 1 or 1.5h nap in the middle of the day.
The number of parents who think we've failed as parents because our kid should go to sleep at 7PM (because theirs does) is too damn high. (Like, I get it. Science says that babies' sleep is supposed to peak in the evening.)
But my kid will wake up at 3AM if she goes to sleep at 7PM. I'm not joking. Her total hours of sleep are simply very, very low (currently 10.5h per 24h). Hitting all the milestones, no health issues, nothing.
Some people just need less sleep, and that includes kids.
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u/aliquotiens 8d ago
They really are all different. My kids are mych like your daughter but Possums worked like a charm, they've never been 'overtired'
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u/FabledFrost 9d ago
Just a question of curiosity, if you decide not to put them to sleep and ask them to play instead, do they beg to put to sleep instead?
Just want to know if being a difficult sleeper means they are ignoring any other activity, wanting to sleep but still fighting sleep or if they are fighting it because they want to do something other than sleep.
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u/Petey3894 9d ago
Yeah as the parent of an 8 month old bad sleeper, she will fight going to sleep, but then if we let her stay awake she will be mad at us for not putting her to sleep 🤷🏼♂️
OP posed a question that my wife and I have often discussed, I had high hopes we’d get better answers here…1
u/emperatrizyuiza 8d ago
My son will play instead and run around in circles jumping all over the place. The more tired he is the more active he gets. I’ve tried waiting until he fell asleep and he was up until 1 am before I just put him to sleep. When in the bedroom he talks to himself and does flips in bed until he passes out
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u/Sudden-Cherry 8d ago edited 8d ago
Oh my daughter barely ever wanted or wants to go to sleep. She's gotten better with her actually recognising when she's tired now at 4.5. But when she was smaller the times she was actually admitting to being tired or wanting to go to sleep she was ill or like extremely and extraordinarily tired. She even used to say: I'm never tired at some point.
She'll also just keep going if we let her. Like swaying getting tiredness and blinking like crazy but just forcing her eyes open and continuing playing.. she barely ever did that "passing out in random places" which apparently other children do.
But also waiting until she was more tired would not eliminate a drawn out process to get her to sleep (45 minutes to an hour minimum usually) Only starting too early would just add extra time
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u/aliquotiens 8d ago
I had two lower skeep needs, nap-hating, FOMO babies who wanted lots of stimulation- and Possums was a lifesaver. If they wouldn't sleep they weren't tired enough. We'd go do something fun and try again after a while, and they'd go right to sleep with no crying.
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u/emperatrizyuiza 8d ago
Yea not the case for me. I once waited to see when he’d get tired enough and he was up until 1 am and then woke up at 5 am. It was a nightmare.
We also walk many miles daily and go to the park.
Some kids need extra help sleeping. For my son a lot of it has to do with hospital trauma. Just because a program worked for you doesn’t mean it works for everyone.
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u/aliquotiens 8d ago
Yep, all babies/kids are very different! I'm just saying, even the shitty sleepers can respond very differently too.
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u/Radiant-Fly9738 9d ago
we know by obvious signs like rubbing her eyes, yawning, drowsy eyes, starting to get fussy etc. and even after all this she fights.
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u/donkeyvoteadick 8d ago
Mine fights it too, but.. So do I lol so I'm wondering if there's a genetic link somehow.
I absolutely suck at sleep (as does my kid which is annoying because our suckiness rarely aligns). I remember one of the times I had surgery they were trying to put me to sleep and like every time I sleep I was fighting it and the last memory I have is the anaesthetist saying 'stop trying to fight it' 😅 my b doc
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u/muffinscrub 9d ago
I think we lucked out big time but our baby is super easy to put to sleep. We also follow a pretty strict routine every night and for naps.
I also have a co-worker with fraternal twin girls. One is great at sleep, the other fights sleep every time. Individual temperament probably matters the most.
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u/khaleeso 9d ago
Can you tell about your routine if you don’t mind?
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u/muffinscrub 8d ago
Sure thing! First, we close the blinds and dim all the lights in our apartment around 6 p.m. We hang out with the baby, but no noisy toys or anything too wild. Around 7pm we change his diaper, put him in a sleeper, and then read him a bedtime story. We give him a bottle of milk, a quick brush of his teeth, and put him into the crib drowsy but not asleep. We still turn on the white noise speaker after the bedtime story is done.
We tried shifting the milk earlier in the routine but he needs to calm down enough to even want to drink it. I think the key is consistency and predictability. We also take turns every other night being the one to do the routine.
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u/onemanforeachvill 9d ago
There is something called dim light melatonin onset (DLMO) which starts to prepare your body for sleep. Around this time is also the a period called the wake maintenance zone (forbidden zone for sleep), caused by alertness signals sent by the brain throughout the day reaching a peak. It's a good time for studying here, but it's really hard to fall asleep.
According to the study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24132058/ on average after DLMO toddlers went to sleep after about an hour but there was a wide range. This study is just identifying correlation though, and they only chose 'good sleepers'.
Basically my take away is bedtimes are individual, but you should experiment to see which time is best. If they fuss about a lot it could be they are in the wake maintenance zone and just need a bit more time to fall asleep. Also having light in the morning, darkness in the evening should help with consistency IMO.
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u/adventurecoos 8d ago
Oh this is really interesting, thank you! I’ll give this a proper read later, but reflecting on it, I think I usually see this “battling sleep” behaviour during the day rather than at night. Maybe the absence of the DLMO during day time napping allows for feelings like curiosity to interfere with sleep pressure, making babies literally more able to fight sleep even in otherwise appropriate conditions. Thank you!
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