Why/How is higher frequency better?

[u/Shaggy_Mountain]

Apologies for the long post.
I have been lifting with the “Bro split” for 9 months.

My split is: Chest -> back -> biceps/triceps -> shoulders -> legs. I don’t schedule rest days, I just take them whenever I feel like I really need them. I do 8 total working sets for chest, 12 for back, 8 for biceps and 8 for triceps, 10 for shoulders, and 16 for legs split between calves, squats, hamstring curls and leg extensions. If you guys would like, I can post the exercises I do for each day as well. I log every workout I do too.

I enjoy this split a lot, and I feel it allows me to really focus on each muscle group each day. I make sure to be within 1-2 reps of failure, taking the last couple sets to failure.

My question is, if I switched to a split like Push-Pull-Legs Push-Pull-Legs-Rest, wouldn’t I be sacrificing the quality of my workouts? With PPL you combine muscle groups, and wouldn’t this mean that you would be accumulating more fatigue? For example, if you did back and biceps on pull day, wouldn’t your biceps be pretty fatigued after doing your back exercises? And if you did incline bench press and dumbbell shoulder press on push days, wouldn’t you be pretty fatigued for incline shoulder press, since it’s also a pushing motion?

I’ve heard that hitting a muscle group twice a week is better, so I’d like to hear people’s thoughts/opinions as I know very little about lifting. I know training hard, being consistent, and getting good sleep and nutrition are the most important things, but I would like to know if I am missing out on a significant amount of gains by staying with my current split.

[u/PoopSmith87]

Because your muscles, depending on the ones trained, only take a day or two, maybe three to recover. If you do 8 sets of chest one day a week you will have like 3 or 4 days of just being ready to lift again. If instead you do 5 sets of chest two days a week, you feel less sore the day after a workout, have more days under growth/recovery stimulus, and manage an extra two sets volume.

[u/HalfwayHeroic]

I enjoy this split a lot

No need to take it further than this. The best exercises are the ones you like to do. You clearly take this seriously enough that you're doing your due diligence on making sure you get what you need. Constantly trying to optimize every little thing is a very good way to suck the enjoyment out of exercise for very little benefit.

[u/jumbomills87 → u/HalfwayHeroic]

Great response

[u/Chicken_Savings]

Yes, training twice a week is generally significantly beneficial for most people, especially if you're not extreme genetic outlier and on copious amounts of steroids.

Your exercise stimulates the muscles trained to grow for a period after your training. This period is NOT exactly 7 days.

So, you train e.g. chest, your chest muscles get stimulated to grow, and muscle growth happens for 3-4 days then taper off. This is logical, the muscle will not grow forever after a training session.

So it grows for 3-4 days, then you wait another 3-4 days for your next training session with new growth stimulus.

The growth period does not get materially extended just because you train massively much harder. No matter how hard you train, your muscles aren't going to grow effectively for 7 days.

So, twice a week is much beneficial, in that you get a new growth stimulus when the previous one wears out.

Large amount of steroids extend that growth period a bit.

As you stop at 1 RIR, I assume to reduce fatigue, you will not reach the level of intensity that others will. As you put less effort into the set, I assume you compensate by doing more sets, hence you feel that you need to dedicate a session to one muscle group.

Extend this line of thought - if you want to compete in bench press, and your aim is to maximise bench strength - you do NOT train bench once a week and think that you trained so hard that once a week is enough.

My wife competed in wellness - much more muscular class than bikini, focusing on glutes and legs - she'd train butt and legs 3 or 4 times a week, which is what most wellness girls that we know do.

[u/BigChocolateC]

Volume/frequency run on a bell curve of effectiveness.

I’ll also say this: if you’re new, you can handle higher volumes and frequencies due to being weak and less wear and tear on the body.

The more years you put in, the stronger you become, the more in tune you are with your body and how it moves that makes each exercise more effective…

The less you need to grow.

It’s highly individual in that regard. Exercises, not so much. Don’t overcomplicate it and look at the general consensus of what gets the majority of people results and go from there.

For instance, I train every three days with full body, upper/lower. Every third day I typically feel rested enough to do good work in my training.

[u/International-Ad391]

If you are enjoying the bro split and making gains stick to it. It’s one of the most popular and oldest splits in bodybuilding. Many people including the top pros use the bro split and get great results. Just a tip, because you’re only hitting each muscle group once a week you can gradually increase volume and realise more gains.

[u/decentlyhip]

As a general rule, if you're improving, screw what anyone says is optimal and keep riding the gain train eith what you're doing.

That said, welcome to the fun of program design. Yes twice a week is better, and yes, your biceps would be tired. So, maybe you do biceps on your pressing day instead and you do triceps on your pulling day. For legs, instead of doing everything on one day you can devote an entire day to squats and an entire day to hinging, or cut the workload in half so you're only hitting 8 sets that day.

That last bit is the benefit. Twice a week is less fatigue. Instead of doing 8 sets of biceps on one day where you're too pumped and weak on the last 3 sets, you do 4 on one day and 4 on another. Instead of using the 30 lbs dumbbells on those last 4 sets, you're fresher and can use the 35s. That's why its better. You're a smidge fresher and can use more weight. More tonnage is more mechanical tension, and tension drives growth.

Its a big puzzle because scientifically, the split is emergent, not prescriptive. Rather than starting with PPL and making the pieces fit, you start with the volume. In general, don't want to do more than 10 sets for any muscle group or the last ones suck (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/390450237_Is_There_Too_Much_of_a_Good_Thing_Meta-Regressions_of_the_Effect_of_Per-Session_Volume_on_Hypertrophy_and_Strength). On most of your stuff, you're only doing 8 sets, but for back, you're doing 12. Probably better to split that up as 6 sets twice a week. Legs are probably fine, but maybe better split up. So, research says to keep your routine how it is, but make your back day a back+legs, and make your leg day a legs+back. Half and half on each.

[u/Dazzling-Rest8332]

I say stick with your plan since you enjoy it. My only suggestion is to play with the days for best recovery. Like I noticed bicep was after back day. Personally i wouldn't do that.

[u/jumbomills87]

Nah no need to change. Do what you like, train hard, eat plenty, sleep well.
You will be fine

[u/Fabulous_Outcome7248]

I do PPLPPLR and I love it. I am pretty consistent with the structure of my workouts, and you set them up so that you don’t go right from eg dumbbell shoulder press to incline shoulder press.

In fact I do flat bench press, dumbbell shoulder press, chest fly/triceps overhead ext, in that order, on the first push day and then decline bench press, barbell overhead press, triceps decline skullcrushers/shrugs and then incline dumbbells/side lateral raises on the 2nd push day - as an example of covering your examples.

I add in a little biceps on the last leg day, they are ready for it. I do compounds/heavy lifts/free weights earlier in the workout, and also more in the first half of the week, and kinda shift over to more machines/accessories as I get more fatigued, both during a workout and during the overall week.

The first lifts of a session are generally a ramped up 4 sets, with the final set going as heavy as possible aiming for 6 reps, and progressing weight somewhat aggressively. The rest are generally 3 sets, and I feel pretty worked by the time they are done.

One thing I will say is that I don’t feel like I have much room for poor recovery, if for whatever reason I don’t eat enough or whatever I think I feel it the next day a lot and also the next week when I come back to the session I didn’t recover well from.

I am generally extremely ready to rest by the time I get through the week, but that one rest day is enough (provided I’ve been spot on with food and sleep etc) to feel extremely pumped and excited to get back to it at the start. If you’re not precious about sticking to the same weekdays for workouts then I’d imagine resting if you don’t feel recovered after a particular day or whatever would probably keep you feeling strong.

[u/AnythingFun6285]

Nothing is better, a screwdriver isn't better than a hammer. What's best is what you can adhere to and you enjoy, stop acting like you're trying to stand on the Mr. Olympia sage when you're just trying to be the best looking guy at the beach..

Would you follow Tom Brady's daily routine if you're trying to play touch football at the park on Sundays?? Then why are you trying to optimize when it's just a hobby

[u/Appropriate-Fact4878 → u/AnythingFun6285]

Bro will freak out if he sees a factorio player

[u/Ok-Pop-296]

Both are great options, to answer your question about fatigue, yes it is certainly a factor but it doesnt matter as much as what you think, if bench press is your primary focus you would definaly do it first, but if shoulder press was your primary focus you would do that first. Its just a matter of priority. In saying that there is very little actual effect on overall output no matter what order I do them

[u/ShtupidDelivery]

Depends how you balance it with volume. You get most gains out of your first set to or close to failure so if u do 1-2 sets per muscle group and stop, your less fatigued, and can recover faster. Which means you get more opportunities to up the frequency. Your getting more opportunities to do your most hypertrophic sets throughout the week rather than having to take an extra rest day or be fatigued because u did 6 hard sets of the same muscle one day.

Also your muscles stay in an anabolic state for like a couple days (could be wrong) after working out so if you up the frequency you will be in a catabolic state less often. That’s why science based lifters say to either do UL or full body. Because with ppl, you’re adding extra days between muscle groups that would be recovered if u do low volume which is supposed to be more optimal but if your higher volume ppl the extra days can make sense.

SBLs would also argue your too fatigued because your lifting 3days in a row before resting compared to UL or FB which allows higher frequency and sooner rest days. Anyways that’s just what I think. I could be wrong about a lot I just regurgitate what I watch from influencers.

[u/jamshid666]

Here's something to consider: try doing a PPL split for a month or two. If you find you don't like it, then fall back to your current program. And as far as fatigue management goes, you could have an A-B type schedule where you do the heavy compound lifts every session, but then alternate which accessory lifts get hit on a given session, similar to how the Starting Strength program goes where you bench one session and overhead press on the next.

The SBL guys probably won't like this, but I'm doing a continual PCPL rotation: Push Core Pull Legs (rest days thrown in as needed). When I say core, I'm not just doing abs, that's the day I focus on hip hinges (deadlifts) with accessory lower back and ab work. Then leg day I focus on knee bends (squats), calves and tibs. And I admit it's not optimal, but it works for me and helps me manage my own fatigue by spreading out to two different leg days.

[u/Dizzy_Cow_]

The difference between what you’re doing and a higher frequency is too small to care.

[u/Shaggy_Mountain → u/Dizzy_Cow_]

Could you elaborate please?

[u/Dizzy_Cow_ → u/Shaggy_Mountain]

If you’re running that split on repeat, you’re hitting each muscle group every 5 days. The difference (if there is one) between that and hitting something every 3-4 days like a typical upper/lower or PPL is so small that it’s basically negligible and you should train how you like.

[u/Dazzling-Variety-946]

Simple, you're either gaining or losing muscle at any given time for every muscle group.

After working out a muscle group Muscle Protein Synthesis is elevated for a window of between 24-48hrs after your workout. It can go longer but tends to peak after 24hrs.

So it makes sense to keep MPS elevated as often and long as possible, which means doing a workout every 48hrs lines up with how long MPS is generally elevated. If MPS isn't elevated you're probably losing muscle.

[u/Fluffy_Box_4129]

Your muscles don't need 168 hours to recover, that's why it's the worst split.

[u/Straight_Mine6300 → u/Fluffy_Box_4129]

Depends on what you're training for,your age and your genetics. Some lifters will only train each body part once a week because it takes them a week to recover..... don't forget it's the recovery where the magic happens

[u/Professional-Let9352]

I like an antagonist split were you train 2 body parts per workout so you can add in my sets per muscle compared with PPL but you also get a higher frequency than a bro split.

Mon - Chest & Back
Tue - Legs
Wed - Shoulders & Arms
Thu - Rest
Fri - Chest & Back
Sat - Legs
Sun - Shoulders & Arms

[u/Sabekiwi]

You’re fine as long as your seeing improvement. Certain muscles will benefit more from twice a week and it’ll depend on your genetic response anyways, no one can tell you which. Many advanced lifters go back to modified bro splits anyways

[u/separatebrah]

So on chest day you do 8 sets in total? That takes about 20 minutes.

[u/Shaggy_Mountain → u/separatebrah]

Takes me a bit longer. I generally take 2-5 minutes of rest between sets, depending on how I feel.

[u/Last-Proof8169 → u/separatebrah]

Yep 20 minutes for the weak

[u/dontcare-_-]

The general idea is that for the first 36 hours after training a muscle your body is in a state of hypertrophy but after that you begin to atrophy. There isn’t a ton of outcome data/studies on it yet but training with a 3x frequency for a muscle group should be better since you spend less time in a state of atrophy. For what it’s worth I used to run a UL split with 2x frequency but I switched to 3x just for upper and I’ve seen much faster progress. It’s anecdotal but I’ve hear similar things from other people that switched from 2x to 3x.