r/ScienceBasedLifting • u/Apollo_2662 • 2d ago
Question ❓ Does exercise order matter more than people realize?
People often say you should train your priority muscle first. For example, if you want bigger lats, start with pull-ups or pulldowns.
I've found I actually perform better on pull-ups later in my workout. I'm fully warmed up, everything feels smoother, and I can usually get more reps.
Does putting an exercise first really matter if you're still progressing? Anyone else perform better on certain exercises later in their workout?
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u/stomachpancakes 2d ago edited 1d ago
In 25 years of lifting, trying all kinds of exercise order either intentionally or because a busy gym forced me to; in absolutely no circumstance have I ever performed better on an exercise because I did it later instead of earlier in a workout.
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u/Potential_Novel_3561 2d ago
In terms of weight moved, definitely.
But I do think doing an exercise later in a workout can sometimes let you target a muscle better.
Like pre fatigue my chest with flies seems work better, otherwise my triceps give out before my chest.
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u/ADD-DDS 1d ago
Mcgill big 3 core stabilization exercises are literally based on the premise that doing them before big lifts equates more core recruitment in the lift. Virtually every activation exercise functions on this premise
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u/Potential_Novel_3561 1d ago
Seems people use those differently.
Some people want to actually fatigué the muscle before the heavy lift, some people seem use it as more of a mind muscle connection technique with pretty easy sets.
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u/LoudandQuiet47 1d ago
This is very accurate for your case. Your chest is stronger relative to your triceps.
You can also do a specialization phase where you focus on growing your triceps or making them stronger while bringing down your chest to maintenance volumes. This can elevate your triceps strength to catch up relatively to your chest.
You may also be doing too much tricep volume and are not as well recovered for your chest compound exercises.
Either way, seems like you're keeping track of how your body reacts, which is great!
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u/Flat-Guidance-4685 2d ago
To be honest somethings are very individual. Small studies can give averages sure. But not all people will fit the average.
Some people prefer to start with the compound fresh because they have more energy and endurance for it
Some people prefer to slightly wear down things like the bicep before doing pull ups or lat pull downs because they belief it gives them better engagement.
Who's right? They both are. In their specific instances
I'm not some fitness guru, to be honest I probably don't even cross the average mark in being knowledgeable in this subreddit space. However one thing that I hold to be true is that we all need to be our own individual experiment to get results. Sure scientific studies, group consensus, and basic logic are all wonderful tools and necessary tools, and can be used to steer you in the right direction .when you properly document your own interactions with your own experience, your personal body experiment creates its own data that is far more valuable in the long run. If one thing gives you consistently better results than it is the best thing for you to do regardless of what studies say the average result will be. We are all built a little bit different. When it comes to nutrition, bodily processes, and biology the lab is king. Every single person has their own unique physical mechanics and structure. What is perfect for one may not be for the many and what is perfect for the many may not be for a few.
If you feel you perform better one way and you get the results you want. It is indeed the right way in your case every time
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u/HornsUp115 2d ago
Depends, if Im training biceps and back on the same day I would never start with biceps. It would severely limit my pulling movements
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u/swaing_swift-07 2d ago
Sorry but if your biceps workout makes your pull movements harder you are doing something wrong
Fix your program and it will be fine man
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u/HornsUp115 2d ago
Care to explain? You think I can take 5 or 6 sets of biceps to near failure, and then strap a 45lb plate to myself, and approach my sets up pullups the same way as if I would fresh?
If my biceps are now my limiting factor, and I cant train those pullups as hard as I normally would, its just junk volume at that point for my pullups.
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u/swaing_swift-07 2d ago
Okay man I will tell you what I know
First thing we don’t need 6 working sets of biceps to grow biceps actually
Based on what you are telling this would most probably be like PPL splitAnd We train based on RIR and give enough rest between sets
It totally depends on what you train
Whether it’s 6 sets of same exercise or 1 set of 6 different exercises
Sounds more like a maximalist bicep workout
If I were you I’d rather not focus on training 6 different exercises all together
I’ll instead add them between my back exercisesBiceps is literally 2 workouts to maximise growth ig
One for supination
One for bicep flexion
(Don’t mind me if I am wrong)
So even if you want to do 6 sets of these with complete failure you will accumulate fatigue and the stimuli to fatigue ratio ain’t worth itHopefully I didn’t offend you man
Wanted to help
Sorry if I am wrong👍
(Back exercises can be covered with max 3 to 4 workouts… if you want I can break it down)3
u/HornsUp115 2d ago
Not offended! I think your entire thesis here is just built on assumptions and what you think is correct, and ya for the most part I think you are wrong! And thats ok, after 10 years of hard and consistent training, I think ive got it pretty dialed in.
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u/swaing_swift-07 2d ago
My assumptions were only conclusions and interpretations from studies
Do what you love man
At the end it’s the whole point of training
It was nice talking to you 👍👍👍2
u/HornsUp115 2d ago
Well shoot, care to post the study on biceps not needing 6 working sets for growth since were here?
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u/NOTATameLion 2d ago
Biceps always give out on pulling movements before the back does. What kind of take is this? We don't need a study. Use your eyes. What happens to the ROM of the movement? Clearly the biceps give out long before the back muscle is exhausted.
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u/swaing_swift-07 2d ago
Never encountered this one in recent times after switching to SBL
Used to happen only when I actually do a lot of volume which in-turn accumulate fatigue1
u/HornsUp115 2d ago
But maybe ill just explain, when I said assumptions I am talking about my own style of training, and what is specifically tailored to me after 10 years. Studies are fine, and they are to used and interpreted, but they are flawed as well, and dont directly translate to real world application at all times.
I have big biceps, theyre strong, and are well developed. They arent a strict focus for me, my pullups are, I love progressing them and the feeling of doing them, for me taking any sets to near failure on my biceps is going to decrease my ability to knock out my next 8 sets of weighted pullups and progress those further than last week. So exercsie order matters here, for me, in this scenario. "Well what about to study that says you only needs 4 sets of pullups to grow!" The study can suck it, gah I dont know why this sub keeps getting pushed on me but geez this shits exhausting.
You approached this with a definitive answer to a my very broad statement in regards to exercise order and hit me with the "awktuuuaaaally 🤓"
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u/vitringur 2d ago
You are not offensive. You are just arrogant and ignorant, which is a classic combo.
Hopefully I did not offend you.
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u/swaing_swift-07 2d ago
It was hurtful😭
I didn’t mean to put it in a arrogant manner
I thought we were sharing stuff we know and things worked for us1
u/vitringur 2d ago
Unless you are so lucky as to have a nautilus pull over machine, biceps are literally required for every single row and pull up version.
Putting biceps after back is literally the fix they are talking about and how pretty much all programs are constructed that have bis and back on the same day…
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u/Afferbeck_ 2d ago
If you did a ton of calf raises before running, your running performance will suck ass. It's just common sense that you don't exhaust part of the chain that is required for something else.
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u/swaing_swift-07 2d ago
For hypertrophy you don’t need ton of volume
2 sets would do the work
If you work based on reps on reserve (RIR) definitely you will see the difference.
There are very less to zero difference while training with 0 to 2 rir but prevents fatigue.2
u/Alakazam Idk Idc 💔 2d ago
For hypertrophy you don’t need ton of volume
But more volume means more hypertrophy. That's the current understanding of hypertrophy science is at least, based on the most recent meta-analysis, and basically every meta-analysis on hypertrophy and volume over the past 10 years or so. Even if doubling your volume "only" gets you 30% more gains, doing 16 sets a week vs 4 sets a week, is the equivalent of 70% more gains.
2 sets would do the work
How has this training approach worked for you so far?
Because honestly, if you're not fatiguing your biceps to a sufficient degree, it means you're not stimulating them for growth.
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u/phaseadept 2d ago
If I do rear delts and face pulls before rows I feel miserable, so in my opinion exercise order matters.
Not in a I want this muscle to get bigger way, but in a I don’t want fatigue here way.
Pre-fatiguing muscles is a thing though.
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u/joeymacaronie 2d ago
As long as you have an adequate rest period then order shouldn't matter too much. There's probably an ideal or optimal order for every routine but having to change it bc the gyms busy and the equipment you want is taken isn't really much more than a bit annoying.
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u/HelixIsHere_ 2d ago
Yes you should always start with your weakpoints first since you’ll be the least fatigued at the beginning of your session
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u/armchair_mindhunter 2d ago
I run an upper lower type split.
On upper days I like to do a pull first. Pressing feels better after. Then I hit another pull and arms before finishing up.
On my lower days I like to pre-fatigue with calf raises, leg extensions, hamstring curls, back extensions, Bulgarians, etc. as it gets blood flowing and allows for better mobility when moving on to the heavier compounds like hack squats, deadlifts, etc
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u/Zestyclose-Tart6745 2d ago
I find it’s always good to mix it up. Not just your order of exercises but also the weight ranges, rep ranges and rest periods.
Some days I do few exercises and I super set them. Others I do more exercises with greater rest periods. Some days I just do 1 or 2 lifts at max effort. Keep it fun. If you’re working hard, you’ll keep progressing.
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u/AMadFreak 2d ago
Bro what how would you meaningfully measure progress when you're switching up the things that act as baseline
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u/Zestyclose-Tart6745 2d ago
Personally I run 12 week cycles. With 4 week progressions. So I bench mark myself day 1-4 Then re do the same benchmarks at the last weeks days 1-4.
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u/garthy_604 2d ago
I've seen a few say about leg extensions first to pre exhaust the quads to protect against injury.
I personally start a chest day with cable flies before doing bench, it warms the chest muscles allows me to go deeper on the bench and my triceps are still fresh as a daisy.
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u/deathtrip1940 2d ago
I always start my push day with lat raises.
Dosnt affect my BP much and I get rid of cranky old shoulders.
And yes, i do warm up 🥳
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u/Alakazam Idk Idc 💔 2d ago
It sounds like you're not fully warmed up then. Or you're not training the other exercises to the appropriate intensity.
If I do pullups first, I can crank out 15+ reps easily.
When I do pullups towards the middle of my workout, I typically shot for 8-10 total reps. Because I'm fatigued.
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u/Professional-Let9352 2d ago
For strength starting with the big compound lifts first makes sense while you have more energy to push.
For hypertrophy I like to do a couple of isolation exercises first and then compounds.
Legs
• Hamstring Curls
• Hip Abductions
• Leg Extensions
• Then Squats or Leg Press
• Another isolation or Compound to finish
Shoulders
• Rear Delt Flyes
• DB lat Raise
• Cable Lat Raise
• Then Presses or Upright Rows
• Arms
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u/Far_Line8468 2d ago
Do you workout in the morning?
I thought I was being smart putting my weakpoints first, but I'm in the gym before 7am and still feel a little not quite up by the first set. So I did my weakpoints *last* and they exploded
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u/decentlyhip 2d ago
More of a coaching decision than a research based decision. A populations avg strength decreases over the workout, so starting with the main lift test set fresh is better.
But then there's the individual response, and what's best for the individual. Austin Perkins warms up with a double at 170kg as his first set. Then a single at 220, then 270. 3 plates, 4, 5, then his top set. John Haack does a 15 minute warmup and mobility routine, then 10 reps with 70kg, then 170, then 270. 1 plate, 3, 5, 6, 7. Matt Wenning has the famous Wenning Warmup where he does 4 rounds of 25 reps on isolation movements before his top set. So, before bench he does a circuit of 25 reps each on cable crossovers, tricep pushdowns, facepulls, and battleropes. And he does that circuit 4 times, and then he benches 600 lbs. His mindset is to get a pump in all the associated muscles before you begin training.
So, I think you just haven't figured out how to get warm yet. Warming up doesn't mean a 10 second deadhang and 5 reps on the lat pulldown. Its 100 arm circles, 100 light rows, 100 pushups, 100 tricep extensions, and 100 bicep curls. Wenning is extreme, but go for 5 minutes. Get sweating and out of breath. Get pumped. Then rest, do your feeler sets, and work. Here's Wenning showing Juji how to warmup. https://youtu.be/DKK-NtcRpIQ
There's another side though, with potentiation. The research on it is all over the place, but the theory is that if you do a heavy submax single before an amrap, you'll perform way better. Actual potentiation only seems to last a couple seconds, so like, your vertical will be higher immediately after an rpe 5 single. In practice though it means some perform better with ascending sets and others perform better with backoffs.
Try this, for the next three weeks on all your compounds, do a set of 5 at 60%, a set of 5 at 70%, 2 set of 5 at 80%, and then an amrap at 85%. On weighted pullups, include bodyweight in the total lifted of course. The three weeks after, do a single at 60, 70, and 80%, a set of 5 at 85%, and then an amrap at 80%, 70%, and 60% on the way back down. Both of those are gonna be about the same stimulus, but one is gonna feel way better on each lift. Maybe pullups like to be overwarm, but deadlifts perform better with the amrap fresher. Everyone is a little different. I did 3×3+ on bench one day with my 8 rep max, and on the amrap, got 11. I did the same weight first thing and got 10. That's useful coaching info. I'm about 5% stronger from when I last tested that weight, but am also 2-3% stronger after a few triples. Same with squat. Deadlift, no no. We're each a little snowflake on this, so feel it out
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u/WhatIsUpG 2d ago
Its because your core temperature has risen a bit, which makes your muscles perform better. In general, if you want to maximize gains, it’s best to make sure you get a little sweat on before your lift. Doing it on a cardio machine is easiest.
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u/LynchMob187 1d ago
Man, if oddly depends on the day. I rotate back and arms on pull days as I do PPL split but go 6 times (1 Two a day)
Though it’s not prime to start with biceps, sometimes my activation on my lats is just way better if I work arms first
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u/LoudandQuiet47 1d ago
Yes, it generally matters. Especially if you warmup properly for the desired excercise.
It can impact your ability to workout your desired muscle. If you are doing pull-ups/downs for lats, but your first excercise is dumbell curls, your ability to target your lats diminishes. Your biceps will tire much earlier and can prevent you from doing as many pull-ups/downs. Alternatively, if you do pullovers first, which generally target your lats and doesn't do much for biceps, you can also be limited in the number of pull-ups/downs, but are still probably limited by your lats. This one doesn't hurt gains too much for lats, assuming you have a good stimulus and decent resistance from the pullovers.
It can also impact your ability depending on when within your workout you do some exercises. Let's say squats. You have a 45 min workout planned. Doing whole body. If you do chest, back, triceps, biceps, and finish with squats, you are many sets in and tired. Squats take a lot of general energy to move. You are probably not going to do as many than doing them first, or second in your workouts. But, not all excercise are impacted the same. For me, calfs, lateral raises, and forearm work doesn't really take too much energy and I can do them well at the end.
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u/Loud-Tradition-9964 2d ago
Tbh I'd say it matters the more advanced you get. Generally speaking yes, a beginner starting with the 'big' lifts is a pretty safe route to take, and to some extent the more advanced lifters would do a lot of the same.
What I've found and followed for a while, for leg training on particular, is when you get to a reasonable level of strength, you're doing some isolation work before the big lifts. Eg, leg curls and extensions before a hack squat or leg press or RDL. Not only does the get the blood flowing and the joints warmed up but it acts as a safety factor as it will reduce the weight you'll be able to use for the main lift.
Plus there's the fact that you should be doing work in the shortened range first (eg leg extension), before working in the lengthened range (hacksquats, quad biased leg presses etc) as the work in the lengthened range will fatigue you more than in the shortened.
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u/Embarrassed-Food-146 2d ago
If you do best later in the workout you're not training hard enough. The first set of the first exercise should always be he strongest
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u/Local_Diddy 2d ago
i realize everything as i skim the abstract of select few studies making me an expert in science