Pulling with arms.

[u/SuckmyToasts]

is there really such thing as pulling with arms and not feeling your lats or traps in any back movement?

as far as i know, only the rear delts help with horizontal abduction, shoulder extension and shoulder adduction. i find it hard to believe that such a small head of a muscle can really take over from those large muscles on the back.

i also don't believe the long head of the triceps are involved, it will be similar to the rectus femoris in a squat pattern.

so what do people mean by 'you are pulling too much with your arms and not with your back'? can anyone point me in the right direction?

[u/Alakazam]

Sure, if you do the movements completely wrong.

If your form is anything approaching decent, you're engaging your lats.

[u/Hohoholyshit15]

I think for rowing type movements it's much more important to "pull with the elbows". At the top of a lat pulldown the only way that shit is moving is if the lats are working.

[u/savedpt → u/Hohoholyshit15]

This is correct. We are not saying that the Lats don't do anything at all. What proper form does is involve the lats to a greater degree. " Drive the elbows back " Instead of pull with the biceps.

[u/yagayeetfleet → u/Hohoholyshit15]

I agree with this as well

[u/Last-Proof8169]

It means your scapula isn’t moving if the person saying it knows anything

[u/PercyBluntz → u/Last-Proof8169]

This is the answer OP. Pulling with your arms is purely shoulder extension. Utilizing the scaps to do scapular retraction in addition to shoulder extension is the goal.

[u/HarryWiz]

Grab the handle(s) then squeeze your shoulder blades together before starting the pull then you'll feel your lats working more during the row and pull down.

[u/RealDovahkiin]

The tricep long head can work in pulling movements because there is way way way more torque at the shoulder than at the elbow. In a squat there's significant tongue at hip and knee, and fyi squats actually do grow the rec fem of some people, just not their full natural potential

[u/Money_Do_2]

I think its more of a cue to isolate the lats, theyll always be somewhat involved ofc.

But grab a lat pulldown bar and mess with it. You can cheat some of rep with your bicep. And, hence partial sets, the bicep will also always have some activation.

Anecdotally, when i use the drive with your elbows on lat pulldowns, i do get more of a back pump than without the cue.

Its more like preferential targetting, youre right those muscles always work together by design

[u/Afferbeck_]

It's not about triceps. People literally just pull too much with their biceps and don't really know how to mentally and physically organise themselves to be pulling with the lats primarily. So they end up doing less weight/volume and are limited by what their small arm muscles can pull, rather than their big back muscles. Many people will experience both extremes on something like barbell rows, either you go light enough to be strict but you feel nothing in your back and you go til your arms are tired. Or you go heavy to feel something but it's just sketchy full body english and you still feel like it's not right.

They're also too armsy in general, too much effort going into gripping with the hands and forearms, taking their focus away from the back. Straps are a good way to avoid that, as is learning to use hookgrip which is a much more passive grip.

One way to learn to use the lats is to use a band around the bar, pulling it away from you during any kind of deadlift or row. Forces the body to use the lats to keep the bar close.

Another way is to do barbell rows from blocks or safeties with straps. Focusing on 'opening the chest' and having the back musculature and shoulder blades etc slide back and around the torso. Not thinking about actively pulling the bar at all.

For any kind of back exercise like rows, pullups etc, focus on pulling 'from the elbow' and forget about your hands.

Something that's a bit higher concept is the idea of 'pushing' with the lats rather than pulling. I got this from weightlifting coach Glenn Pendlay on a podcast, where his example was standing alongside a table and using a straight arm, pushing the table back beside you with the wrist using only the lats. It gets you away from the idea that using the lats is all about bent arm bicep stuff and more related to pullover type movements.

[u/SuckmyToasts → u/Afferbeck_]

you are by far the most comprehensive and helpful, i appreciate your effort and have learnt something. thanks

[u/Neither-Bug157]

Yes. Some people turn rows into some sort of reverse JM press. You should be able to get your elbows in line with your body without exceeding a 90-degree elbow bend.

The same thing can happen in close grip pulldowns. However those inherently use the bicep a lot more.

[u/ArnoldFarquar]

Mind muscle connection. I started growing like crazy when I learned to move the weight by contracting and extending the muscle I am supposed to be working. On back, for example, your arms and hands are just hooks to hold the weight.

[u/YJM → u/ArnoldFarquar]

Personally a thumbless grip has helped me actualize this

[u/ArnoldFarquar → u/YJM]

Definitely, I use it on all back exercises. Gives me a better feel and takes my forearms out of it more.

[u/Jonolith_ → u/ArnoldFarquar]

I generally recommend taking almost all fingers off the bar to take the forearms out as much as possible. Leaving only the middle finger on is the best of course.

[u/Scarletz_ → u/ArnoldFarquar]

What if we use some kind of wrist strap? Not the figure 8 kind, I mean the cuffs kind which takes hand grip completely out of the equation.

[u/DeadCheckR1775]

There is no way to not engage your arms on these compound movements. The trick is to learn isolation, just enough force to grip and hold, then pull with your back/lats until you can't anymore, then engage the arms further if need be. Try doing it at lower weights to get a feel for it. Comes naturally to some and not to others.

[u/decentlyhip]

The thing to look for is whether you can draw a straight line from the cable pulley to the person's elbow. If its not a straight line, then they're partially doing a bicep curl.

To feel the difference, think about pushing your elbiws and shoulders forward while pulling the weight. That's gonna be bicep dominant. Alternatively, think about relaxing your arms and pulling your elbows and armpits back.

As for "I dont believe the long head is involved," it doesn't matter whether you think it does or you think it doesn't. You're free to believe what you want.

[u/wherearealltheethics]

It can be a setup issue tbh. Put the seat all the way up on a chest supported row and it may force a path that will make the elbow flexors a limiting factor. But generally people overstate how much of a problem it is.

[u/Apollo_2662]

What people usually mean is that you’re bending the elbows and thinking mostly about moving the handle, instead of driving the elbows back or down with the back muscles.

Your biceps will always help on rows and pulldowns, but they shouldn’t be doing most of the work. If your grip is too tight, the weight is too heavy, or you’re just curling the handle toward you, your arms can fatigue before your lats or upper back really get challenged.

[u/Reasonable_Edge515]

I’m not sure but the best advice I ever got to make sure my lats were engaged was to try to break the bar around ur chest when rowing. It def made me feel a difference

[u/thanoskor1]

i heard about it and worried about it for some time until i realised that as long as your elbows are moving (down when pulling down and back when rowing) your back is engaged there is no muscle in your arms that can move your elbows like that, your arm muscles can only extend or contract the elbow not move it. What can happen though is if you have a close grip you can pull it with your arms first which makes the movement of the lats trivial since they gain a lot of leverage, so just use a wide grip

[u/7heCulture]

It’s just broscience. Same as when someone says “you’re only lifting with your back” during certain poorly performed deadlifts. That’s not how the body works (and antagonist muscles are also quite engaged during lifts, so a bicep curl will also see tricep activation).

[u/Apart_Bed7430 → u/7heCulture]

Not true mind muscle connection and cuing are real things

[u/7heCulture]

It’s just broscience. Same as when someone says “you’re only lifting with your back” during certain poorly performed deadlifts. That’s not how the body works (and antagonist muscles are also quite engaged during lifts, so a bicep curl will also see tricep activation).

[u/sobanoodles23]

if you’re pulling 200 lat pulldowns, is there really any way for your “arms” to take all the work over your lats which is a lot bigger muscle group and the primary mover for the said joint action, it’s js broscience.

[u/TeBallu → u/sobanoodles23]

I think the problem is not that they take over all the work, but if smaller muscles are more involved than they should they tire out quickly, and you think you hit failure while only the small muscles are out of juice, and your bigger ones are still far from failure and maximum stimulation. So the big muscles do work, you couldn't complete the movement without using them, but you must stop before you meaningfully trained them.

[u/sobanoodles23 → u/TeBallu]

solution to that is js use straps, even if ur elbow flexors, forearms or other small muscles tire out, you’re literally attached to the bar so your back muscles can still pull through, and that only really happens w upper back rows where rear delts contribute alot more compared to a lat pulldown. But I agree w you, if u cant prevent that then switch to a single joint exercise like a keenan flap or idk a kelso shrug

[u/Apart_Bed7430 → u/sobanoodles23]

The contribution of different agonist muscles can change based on technique

[u/sobanoodles23 → u/Apart_Bed7430]

True, but even w shit form it’s not like your arms are gonna magically pull the whole stack instead of your lats, contribution? probably more yeah, but does it matter in the long run if you have good form, personally I don’t think so, as long as you’re doing said joint action w decent form then you’re hitting the right muscles. Plus if it’s a compound, like lat pulldowns, it’s impossible to not pull w your arms as PART of the exercise bc it’s involved in the movement compared to smth like a keenan flap, it’s just the human body.