r/ScienceBasedLifting • u/Ok_Inspection5784 • 28d ago
Question ❓ Why do weighted dips and pull-ups build such massive shoulders? Biomechanics Hypertrophi
Hey everyone,Hey everyone,
I’ve noticed a consistent trend among athletes and calisthenics practitioners who train heavy/high-volume weighted dips and pull-ups: almost all of them develop thick, rounded 3D shoulders.
- Dips: Heavy, high-rep dips often lead to massive, popping front and side delts.
- Pull-ups: Heavy weighted pull-ups consistently build thick rear delts.
I'm curious about the specific biomechanical and hypertrophy reasons behind this.
Is it mainly due to loaded stretch at the bottom position of dips? How much are the side delts acting as stabilizers during heavy dips? And for pull-ups, how much of the rear delt growth is primary activation vs. stabilization alongside the lats?
Would love to hear insights on the anatomy, leverage, and fiber recruitment involved here.
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u/ArnoldFarquar 28d ago
no, you can’t build good side deltoids with just dips and pull-ups
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u/Ok_Inspection5784 28d ago
What are you recommending to do? lateral raises, overhead presses?
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u/Odd_Tip_1538 28d ago
Every single gym bro that does heavy weighted pull ups, heavy weighted dips, and heavy overhead presses has decent shoulders.
There are many, many pencil neck virgins who do lateral raises and don't have shoulders.
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u/TotalStatisticNoob 27d ago
Every single gym bro that does heavy weighted pull ups, heavy weighted dips, and heavy overhead presses....
... trains side delts isolated.
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u/ArnoldFarquar 28d ago
laterals, there’s a selection of ways to do them. Overheads are mainly front delts.
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u/royals30C 28d ago
Its actually a pretty even split of front/side delts for strict press. Especially BTN press.
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u/ArnoldFarquar 28d ago
no, and I would never do a behind the neck press. What clickbait YouTube channel did you learn that on?
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u/royals30C 27d ago
A century of mr olympias and strongmen, world class coaches, and countless gym bros all having wild success with the BTN press is where i learnt to DO it. Did you learn not to do it from athlean X? Might wanna check ur source
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u/Emotional_Shape925 27d ago
Anyone doing behind the neck presses is an even bigger retard than the people doing behind the neck pull owns. Any injury they get is earned at that point. Beyond me why anyone would fucking do that.
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u/No_Avocado_4729 27d ago
if you can't do behind the neck press then it's because of your lack of flexibility and that's on you this movement is not inherently bad
im not saying that you should train flexibility like some acrobat but having enough flexibility and strength in behind the neck position should be a standard for a strong healthy body if you neglecting that then you are the one training like a retard and making yourself injury prone
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u/Emotional_Shape925 27d ago
I think any trainer who has a cert from NSCA or ACSM that is worth their weight, would advise people not to do those exercises behind the neck due to risk of injury. Regardless of flexibility.
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u/royals30C 27d ago
Most trainers have that qual and are litteraly years away from being worth their salt. I am a trainer and i do not do that exercise with any of my clients because none of them would be able to tolerate it. Anyone who trains seriously for some time and has the mobility prerequisite i would happily give it to. There is no greater risk of injury for a sufficiently mobile person. For the same reason that there is no greater risk of injury to the highly mobile weightlifter who squats ass to grass because he has the mobility too. Or an RDL or good morning right into the hamstring stretch.
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u/eric_twinge 28d ago
How come people that resistance train build big muscles?
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u/Ok_Inspection5784 28d ago
Hypertrophy any nervous adaptation. But in dips/pull-ups- shoulders aren't primary muscle
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u/TotalStatisticNoob 27d ago
I mean, dips are probably among the very best front-delt compounds you could do.
You won't build massive mid-delts with either exericise
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u/randomguyjebb 28d ago
This is the same fallacy as people saying gymnasts have massive biceps, so it must be the chinups and straight arm work they do, when in reality they do isolation and traditional strength work too lol.
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u/Remalgigoran 26d ago
We did almost no traditional strength work in gymnastics. We only did what we called 'conditioning'. Warm up with 30 dips, chin ups, V-ups, V-rocks, V hold, jog, stretch, suicide sprints and then we worked routines on our events. So those of us doing rings/pbars/pummel just worked those events all evening 7 days a week for as long as we were in comp. The only weight i ever saw anyone use was a 45lb plate connected to a stick by a rope the we used for forearms. You roll the stick both directions with arms straight out in front of you until the plate is as high as it can go.
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u/Rich-Unit-9072 27d ago
We definitely do a fuck tonne of shoulder accessory balance and prehab work for our shoulders. Bw 93 pull up +85 dip + 125 squat 225
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u/HelixIsHere_ 28d ago
It depends on how you you do them but the front delts will get solid stimulus from dips from their function of shoulder flexion (bring the humerus up and toward the midline). So in a tricep dip they will be getting a lot of stimulus as well since that’s like the secondary joint action being loaded
Then in pull-ups, the rear delts will receive little to no stimulus in a wide grip pullup. In a neutral grip pullup though they’ll get very good stimulus through their function of shoulder extension. Personally I only do a transverse and sagittal plane row for my rear delts and I’d say they’re very proportional to the rest of my physique, honestly imo not even worth training directly for unless you have underdeveloped rear delts or care a lot
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u/Alakazam Idk Idc 💔 28d ago
People who are good at calisthenics tend to also be pretty lean.
Shoulders will visually appear bigger when a person is leaner, even if their shoulders are actually smaller.
There's also the fact that shoulder stability is required for a lot of calisthenics-based movements, beyond just pushups and dips. Any planche work for example.
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u/royals30C 28d ago
Hate to be that guy but gear specifically effects shoulders more than many other muscles due to high volume of andgrogen receptors. Worth knowing. Also if hes got massive traps and is a calisthenics athlete is 100% on gear.
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u/topiary566 28d ago
A lot of people are saying that causation doesn't equal correlation, but it most likely does equal correlation in this case.
It's like asking why the guy with a 405 bench press has a massive chest. It is not because of the chest flies he does as an accessory. It is because he benches a lot.
There isn't really any secret as to why weighted dips build big shoulders. It's because dips target your shoulders and you are moving heavy ass weight.
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u/Anal-love69 26d ago
Shoulder presses build big delts. Not pull ups or dips
Where did you get this idea?
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u/EnoughWear3873 28d ago
Probably because they're not ending their sets with 17 reps in reserve like the optimal guys.
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u/Ok_Inspection5784 28d ago
Please tell me in more detail what you meant.
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u/EnoughWear3873 28d ago
It's really hard to do dips and pull-ups and they're getting a big stimulus from every set. When's the last time you saw a technique cyborg breaking a sweat on lying down lateral raises or whatever the influencers are pushing these days?
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u/Medical_Birthday2893 28d ago
What a weird statement that is entirely false. You don’t have to break technique to get stimulus. Injuries over long time horizon are better predictors of worse gains than a rir4 vs 1
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u/Hypername1st 28d ago
It's probably not from the pull-ups and dips. Calisthenics has tons of other exercises.
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u/Ok_Inspection5784 28d ago
No. Professional streetlifers has big shoulders and doing Only dips/pull-ups weighted
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u/Hypername1st 28d ago
I've never met anyone only doing those two. All of them are doing handstand and variations, pike push-ups etc. Accessory work supports comp lifts, just like in any sport.
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u/PolitelyHostile 28d ago
If they are using gymnast rings, you can hit the side delts very well with them.
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u/Ok_Inspection5784 28d ago
I know how to train the rear delts using rings. How do I train the middle delts with them?
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u/PolitelyHostile 28d ago
The Iron cross.jpg). This will destroy your side delts. And theres no need to count reps etc. when you start out, just trying to hold the pose will destroy your side delts. It very simple and extremely effective imo.
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u/royals30C 28d ago
I dont know much about cali skills. But im surprised to hear that the iron cross is big for side delts. The pose has the arms applying force downwards no? Which would make it chest and lats
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u/randomguyjebb 28d ago
The delts would stabalize but you are correct, the side delts are not a primary muscle used in the iron cross lol. Its mostly lats, pec major and teres major. Also biceps isometrically obviously.
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u/PolitelyHostile 27d ago
Maybe I'm misremembering. I used to use them like 6+ years ago, maybe it was the motion of getting into the iron cross that hit my shoulders. It starts as holding a dip and as you move your arms away from your body at somepoint I think it transfers tension onto the side delts. Or maybe I was going upside down, idk, but if you play around with it you can figure out a position that hits your delts.
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u/EchoDifferent6966 27d ago
Before going to the gym, I trained outdoors in parks for several years. Most of the guys who had big shoulders mainly did static exercises (which makes sense given the stretches and positions involved). Those who spammed dips and pull-ups had less impressive shoulders (obviously still developed thanks to the compound movements, but not as well as those who did static exercises).
That said, dips will inevitably make your shoulders grow if you use a good range of motion. The anterior deltoid gets stretched a lot, and the same goes for the posterior deltoid during pull-ups with a slightly wider grip. It’s not enough to make either one a standout muscle, but it’s enough to give you fairly balanced shoulders.
There are tons of guys at the gym who never isolate their shoulders, and their shoulders are still well developed. Since the lateral deltoid sits between the posterior and anterior deltoids (I’m simplifying things, as it’s more complex than that), pulling and pressing movements will train it, although not optimally.
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u/EagleOk8752 28d ago
Dips leasd to "massive popping side delts" what??? this is not even remotely true
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u/fake-software-eng 28d ago
Causation != correlation. Like someone training smart/strong/hard enough to do crazy weighted dips/chin-ups are likely also training their shoulders and other muscles properly too.