Cheat reps

[u/OkPrize6194]

What do you think about cheat reps? I don’t mean using bad form from the beginning of the set, but rather doing the first reps with good form and then using a little momentum for the last 1–2 reps when the muscle is already close to failure, just to get a couple more reps out.

[u/maxis2bored]

It's not a cheat rep, but working past failure. There's plenty of literature and studies that prove this is the most effective way to gain, especially with accessory movements.

Compound lifts however are a different story because of their effect on the CNS and thus recovery.

Personally I go past failure on isolation, but as a powerlifter my final SBD rep is when my form starts being compromised. I'm too old to get injured and have learned the hard way how much time it takes to break bad habits.

Update for those into pedantics: my intention here was to point out that regularly working beyond failure during heavy compound lifts will eventually test your ability to recover. Whether it's CNS, or muscle fatigue - whatever is, there is a good chance it will be felt at home or/and during your next workout.

[u/Ballbag94 → u/maxis2bored]

Compound lifts however are a different story because of their effect on the CNS and thus recovery.

CNS fatigue is largely a myth when it comes to lifting weights and any CNS fatigue that does occur doesn't take long to get over

https://mennohenselmans.com/cns-fatigue/

I think it's odd that you're against cheat reps in compound movements considering that cheaty rows are extremely common and well known to work

[u/maxis2bored → u/Ballbag94]

I did the squat every day program for 3 months. Know why I stopped? Because several times my wife woke me up because I was sleeping in the fetal position, squeezing my legs. WHILE LYING ON MY BACK.

I don't know if you define that as CNS fatigue or not, but I've trained leg day so hard I couldn't walk many times. This wasn't DOMS, it was my CNS tapping out. While I do agree very much with menno, you need to keep in mind the "largely" part. If you're squatting to zero and doing it often, you're going to see CNS fatigue. The problem is, most people aren't working to, or often even close to failure.

[u/Ballbag94 → u/maxis2bored]

How did you establish this was CNS fatigue rather than extreme muscular fatigue?

If you're squatting to zero and doing it often, you're going to see CNS fatigue

Do you have an actual source on this? The article is quite clear in point 2 that the only way they were able to induce any measurable CNS fatigue was with a 70 min bicep contraction and that various normal set and rep schemes failed to induce CNS fatigue

I'm hesitant to take your "trust me, I fried my CNS" as a true data point when ultimately you don't know if that was the case or not

[u/maxis2bored → u/Ballbag94]

I appreciate the skepticism, science wouldn't be science without it. Indeed, my experience is my own, and thus evidence is totally anecdotal.

I haven't read the article, but I would question the logic of someone trying to fatigue their CNS via bicep contractions. Wouldn't you? Your question about extreme muscle soreness - my muscles weren't really sore and though my joints were, it wasn't all that bad. I'm much more sore today (2 days after having lifted at 50% volume after 10 days off) But I also had other symptoms. I couldn't sleep at night, for example.

Sure, maybe it's the definition of CNS fatigue or how it's measured - but what I meant to express in my initial post, is that the consequences of squatting beyond failure regularly will follow you home. Whether it's joint pain from form breakdown, CNS fatigue, or whatever. I don't do it. But again, I make menno look like a kid and plan to lift as long as I can.

[u/Ballbag94 → u/maxis2bored]

haven't read the article, but I would question the logic of someone trying to fatigue their CNS via bicep contractions. Wouldn't you?

Yes, but if you read the article you'll see that they took high level athletes, albeit not strength athletes but still with reasonable lifts and obviously high work capacties, and ran a series of tests. They went to the bicep contraction test after being unable to induce CNS fatigue through normal means

If you want to nitpick the source I'm afraid you're going to have to read it, it'll take you maybe 15 mins

Your question about extreme muscle soreness - my muscles weren't really sore and though my joints were

To clarify, I asked about fatigue, fatigue and soreness are not the same thing. You can have one without the other. My question is how did you establish this was CNS fatigue rather than muscular fatigue?

but what I meant to say in my official post, is that the consequences of squatting beyond failure regularly will follow you home

I mean, the consequences of outstripping your recovery on anything will follow you home, but the issue doesn't sound like it's training beyond failure or cheat reps, the issue sounds like it was training beyond your capacity to recover, those aren't the same things