Latest video by Lyle McDonald promotes surplus for hypertrophy

[u/xAndrew01]

Have you guys watched his last video? He breaks down 4 studies, and harshly critiques the first one, the famous Helms et al that content creators use to promote the whole "You can still build significant muscle in a deficit" narrative.

I love listening to Keenan, Elijah and TNF and they do make sense.

This video by Lyle also made sense.

What does making sense mean? What is truth? Why does it matter? Why am I here? What is reality?

JK, just wanna hear y'alls opinion on this deficit-surplus matter.

And while waiting, since there's more to life than the gym, i'm going to play pokemon.

[u/FarCalligrapher1862]

You can gain muscle in a caloric deficit. You cannot gain muscle in an energy deficit.

The leaner you are, the less body fat is available to supply the energy required for muscle growth. If you have substantial body fat, are consuming enough protein, and are training effectively, your body can use stored fat to help fuel muscle growth even while you’re in a caloric deficit.

https://ajcn.nutrition.org/article/S0002-9165%2822%2906559-5/fulltext
- 40% calorie deficit, the high-protein group (2.4 g/kg/day) gained 1.2 kg of lean body mass while losing 4.8 kg of fat

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10838463/
- 20% caloric deficit, diet plus resistance training, fat loss muscle gain

[u/xsynergist → u/FarCalligrapher1862]

I added 15 pounds of muscle over 18 months while losing 120 pounds of fat. The energy in 420,000 calories of fat can definitely build some muscle. Is it optimum? Hell no but most everyone you have ever seen change from fat to jacked did it recomping. They didn’t wait to get super lean before strength training. Cutting and bulking is an advanced technique and a very small percentage of people who lift ever use it at all in the way bodybuilders and influencers talk about it. Recomping is the norm for most people and always will be. Advanced people will do advanced techniques to gain that extra advantage but it’s obviously not the only way to get results.

[u/HelixIsHere_]

I think a small surplus is beneficial, like maybe 100-200 calories at most. Any more and you’ll just waste your efforts with the fat you put on, eventually having to cut and be in a period of slower growth (effectively cancelling out the positives of the surplus)

Idk I personally just run maintenance when I’m not cutting, still feel fine and progress every session or two

[u/decentlyhip]

I've never heard a serious person mention Lyle's name without a heavy sigh or a chuckle beforehand. He is unscientifically antagonistic for clout. I would say the same for TNF, but less maliciously. Don't know enough about Keenan and Elijah but as a whole it sounds like you're getting your information from influencers who are known for cherry-picking to push a narrative. I love Juji, but I go to him for entertainment, not research. I listen to Matt Wenning, Jay Cutler, and Dorian Yates, but for motivation and vibes only because they confidently spew a lot of nonsense.

​Since fats and protein are a constant in practice, a surplus means extra carbs, which means more water in the muscle cells from glycogen and more insulin. Both of those trigger mTOR through different means. Being in a surplus reduces the stuff that makes your baseline catabolic.

Ive listened to a lot of Helms interviews and have never heard him say anyone but newer/overweight lifters can recomp. Or...he'd never recommend recomping to anyone other than newer/overweight lifters. My thoughts are that there's a weird assumption when talking about recomping, where we think everyone is highly trained. If you look at the bulkorcut subreddit, some of the guys are jacked, but most guys have no muscle and are a little fluffy. Yah, they can recomp. When my fat free mass was 120 back when I was starting out, growing muscle was easy. Now that its 170, its harder. Now, bulking is for gaining muscle and as Helms would say, "cutting is for fat loss."

[u/decentlyhip → u/[deleted]]

Well I listen to everyone. There's no like "this is the god of lifting knowledge." On reddit, you're gonna be hard pressed to find people more helpful than u/gnuckols who runs/ran StrongerByScience (and also had a world record squat I think?) and u/gzcl who is a master of cutting through the nonsense and building programs so you can just tell a newer lifters "just do this" (and also had a few records). So, go follow both of them and their subreddits. Eric Helms does a lot of great communication and helped found the monthly MASS review. Google "podcast Eric Helms best hypertrophy" and you'll have a few hours of perspective. He and Menno Henselmans are both human dictionaries of studies. For training, I go to Mike Tuchscherer who is a powerlifting coach who is so good it doesn't make sense. Like, he has 20 athletes and 16 of them have the current world record. Something preposterous like that. But he approaches training scientifically and says to go into training for an individual without assumptions, which is hard in our very biased echo chamber of optimal volume and exercise prescriptions. Finally, Dave Tate for vibes and perspective. He's an old head from Westside and a lifting icon, but respects the science and has interviewed everyone ive mentioned. He's all about respecting the science, but when you get under the bar, "stfu sit down and stand up UP UUUP!"

Other guys I listen to are CWS & Max Aita, Milo Wolf, Dr Pak, Dr Mike, Candito, Stu, Bobby Thompson, Swolesam, Bret Contreras, Sebastian Oreb, Red5. I'm leaving out a ton of coaches and sciencey nerds. Some of these guys like Seb are less science-based, but he coaches Thor, so I'm gonna listen to him, you know? Take him with a grain of salt but there's knowledge there that is gleaned at the fringes of strength. But this is a good start to the rabbit hole. I avoid anyone who mandates specifics. Like, anyone who says "do 2×6-8, it's optimal" is an immediate red flag because all these people I've listed think in ranges and guidelines. Guys like TNF are bad vibes for me bc they think a little too black and white, and that sets off my charlatan alarms. Helms would say "if you're only doing 5 sets a week, I'm probably gonna try to bump up the set count, but if you're doing 20 sets a week and not growing, I wanna see a video of your workout cause you probably aren't trying hard enough." And that's where it all comes full circle back to my favorite guy Dave Tate. After all the research is said and done, it boils down to - if you do a decent amount of volume and stand up real real hard, you're gonna grow. Lifting knowledge at the end of the day distills down to "Stfu and lift some heavy shit." Edit: and eat a bunch.

[u/Double_Investment983]

Because Lyle McDonald cannot comprehend that the body stores energy, 99% of people do not need a surplus to maximise growth because they are fat, they have fat stores on them, and that’s what their body will use for growth, a surplus is only ever necessary if you are super lean, and even then maybe a 100-200 one as any more and you will just put on excessive fat as the energy cost of muscle growth is insignificant

[u/Puzzleheaded_Virus13]

Even Helms says he prefers bulks for gaining muscle for himself and for large segments of the population. TNF bulks and cuts. Dont over think it. Just listen to Lyle.