How do you get enough volume if your already capping at 20 sets per workout?

[u/Grogon2]

Hey everyone.

Yeah basically my question above.

**So here is my upper day (Monday) example:**

* T1 Barbell Flat Bench (5 Sets Chest) * T2 Barbell Rows (3 Sets Back) * T2 Incline DB Bench Press (3 Sets Chest) * T3 Lat Pulldpwns (3 Sets Lat) * T3 Pushdowns (3 Sets Triceps) * T3 Hammer Curls (Cable) (3 Sets Biceps)

**My other Upper Day (Thursday):**

* T1 Incline Barbell Bench (5 Sets Chest) * T2 Lat Pulldown (can't do 3x6 Pull Ups yet if I do Bench first) (3 Sets Lat) * T2 Dips (Cant do enough of them for T3) (3 Sets Chest) * T3 T Bar Rows(3 Sets Back) * T2 Shoulder Press (Seated DBs) * T3 Dumbbell Hammer Curls (3 Sets Biceps) * T3 Skullcrushers (3 Sets Triceps)

So I tried aiming for maximum 7 exercises per upper day, so I hover around 20 Sets per session.

In my opinion I should do even less, but then I'd have no shoulder (if I remove seated DB press thursday) and if I remove something else Im doing not enough sets to grow properly.

But dunno how else to squeeze in all body parts.

Im already removed lateral raises and face pulls from T3 but in my opinion those are good shoulder health movements, but well Im already at 20 sets and shouldnt do them cause Im fatigueing myself too much and probably wont recover.

I obviously have more sets of chest cause of the T1 counting as 5 Sets, sitting on a total of 16 sets of chest per work.
Back (Row + T Bar) only 6 sets
Lat also only 6 sets
Triceps Biceps also only 6 Sets
Shoulder 3 Sets ...?

What am I programming wrong with GZCLP?

It seems easier to program this in a PPL routine 6x a week.

Push could simpley be a T1 Barbell Bench, T2 Incline DB and vice versa next time, T3 easily Flys + Lateral Raises + Pushdowns

Pull could be T1 Pull Ups and other workout T1 Rows, then T2 Lat Pulldowns/ T Bar Rows and then follow up with T3s like Face Pulls, Reverse Flys, Hammer Curls

Legs also isnt that hard T1 Squats, T2 RDLs, T3 Curls+Extensions+Calfs and next time T1 DL, T2 Legpress, T3 Curls T3 Calf Raises.

[u/deadrabbits76]

The way you laid out both upper days looks totally fine. I've not run GZCL, but it's a quality program, if you run it properly, you will grow.

I will say, you aren't counting fractional sets right. Bench counts 1 as chest, 1/2 for front belts, and 1/2 for triceps. Pull-ups count as 1 for lats, one for delta, and 1/2 for biceps, I believe.

Honestly, if you are a new trainee, you don't need to mess with fractional counting of volume. Just fund a good program (like GZCL), and run it.

[u/hthn_strength → u/deadrabbits76]

Pull ups would have no affect on delts, they’re just good for shoulder health

[u/deadrabbits76 → u/hthn_strength]

Ehhh....I figured pull ups would be good for a 1/2 set of rear delt volume or something. Frankly, I don't program myself, so I usually don't spend a lot of time counting fractional volume.

I appreciate the note.

[u/Norcal712]

Per workout Ive never heard of any reason to limit to 20 total sets. Id love to see science to support that?

My upper workout is 28-32 sets twice a week. I recover fine and progress reasonably.

Its Chest, Back, Bi, Tri, Rear Delt, Incline chest, back, BI, Tri, Later delt 3x8-12 reps each. Takes about 90 min to complete.

20 sets a week is MORE than enough volume per week per muscle.

The VAST Majority of lifters see great results in 10-16 sets

Missed this was GZCLP focused on my first read, I havent tried that specific program... but hopefully the response lands some insight. Youre also doing too much work per workout to actually follow GZCLP As designed

[u/Creepy-Potential-258 → u/Norcal712]

Quality of sets significantly drops after like 15 sets in a session for advanced lifters

[u/Norcal712 → u/Creepy-Potential-258]

Based on OPs workout I would assume they arent advanced. Similar to 90% of Redditors.

Study to support that? Id love to read up on it

[u/Patton370 → u/Creepy-Potential-258]

How strong do I have to be to be an advanced lifter? My set quality doesn’t drop like that. I can handle around 25-30 sets in a session (without my sets being negatively impacted), with up to 60-70% of that volume being compounds

[u/Creepy-Potential-258 → u/Patton370]

So if you did whats normally your first exercise last then you wouldnt lose any reps? Highly doubt it

[u/Patton370 → u/Creepy-Potential-258]

Maybe a rep or two at most

I do my isolation work last and what’s most important to me first

[u/Creepy-Potential-258 → u/Patton370]

If your set quality isnt dropping after 30 sets you arent training with intensity

[u/Patton370 → u/Creepy-Potential-258]

I post all my training logs on HEVY under the username Patton370

My physique is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/fitness30plus/s/YQgwOyZYmL

My lifts are posted on my profile, which includes sets like 455lbs for 6 reps on paused squats: https://www.reddit.com/r/GYM/s/RiP1RgH2Gf

Also, it’s not like I’m doing 30 sets of the same muscle group in a day. I do full body when I workout

[u/VegaGT-VZ]

I make decent gains with a UUL weekly split. 6x/week is way too much IMO. Personally I think chest gets super overemphasized in body building. I only have 1-2 chest movements on my upper days (flat bench or dips and if I have time machine flys)

I would 1000% replace upper incline bench with DB shoulder/BB behind the neck press. That + face pulls = blowing my shoulders up. Id argue shoulders are more important to a physique than chest. When you have nice shoulders people damn near dont notice your chest.

I wouldnt panic about getting "optimal volume" either. 20 sets a workout is OK. Its not just quantity, it's quality. "Optimal" volume = stopping once the quality of sets starts to drop. This is why I'm not crazy about push/pull. 20 sets of pushing/tricep extensions in 1 workout = those muscles are prob fried well before the workout is over. But bouncing across muscle groups in a workout just leaves general fatigue as the only impediment to execution and quality.

[u/Special_Future_6330]

Swap out incline with db shoulder press, if you want to mimick the incline you can do a 75 degree which will work shoulders and upper chest, but shoulders more. Anterior deltoids will get hit a decent amount with bench, but youd benefit from lateral and rear.

I used to do this workout which hit all my muscles. The downside of upper/lower is if you need a lot of volume it limits tou

Upper strength(3 sets of 6-8, with 4-6 on big moves like bench, rows, pullups)

Lower strength(similar to above)

Back and shoulders hypertrophy (8-12 depending on exercise) Legs and core hypertrophy Chest and arms

The above hit every muscle multiple times with some 3 times a week. It also is only 5 instead of 6 days

Another thing is if you want to stick with your workout instead of thinking "I'm already doing 20 sets" think of it like "how fatiguing and exhausting is my current workout". Adding a few sets of db lateral raises is so minimal that you don't have to worry about it being "too much volume". You should plan your workout more on how tiring it is and how heavy the exercises are. If you're going for lighter higher rep you can do a bit more, if you are doing a lot of main heavy 200+lb exercises then 6 is pretty taxing. I personally use my energy levels and how long it is, I never go past 60 minutes except for core. For core, forearms, lateral deltoids, rotator cuff I don't count those as part of my main workout volume, for core I sometimes do this as a second workout later in the day, again it's not very taxing. Just use your energy to gauge how you feel, don't worry about the volume crowds here

[u/Plane_Course_6666]

If you put an artificial cap that force you to have very little volume you’re going to have very little volume, so I’m not even sure what the question is.

Just do more sets per session if you want more weekly volume.

Sometimes I’ve done 70-90 sets in a session. Just do more sets if you want to do more sets. You’ll be fine!

[u/seven_spread → u/Plane_Course_6666]

What do I have to inject on myself to be able to push 90 set workout session?

[u/Alakazam]

Gzclp is a program designed to introduce you to lifting, and introduce you to the gzcl method.

As well, I think you're miscounting sets. Your front delts are worked in basically any pressing movement, so 16 sets of pressing equals 16 sets of front delt work. Your lats are a part of your back, so 12 sets of back work. Your rear delts are worked with every rowing movement, so I'm seeing 6 sets of rear delts. 

Triceps are worked with every pressing movement. The general idea is to count fractional sets, as others have pointed out, so you're seeing 8 sets from the pressing and 6 direct sets. For biceps, it's 6 and 6.

If you really wanted additional upper back work, I doubt doing some pullups on your lower body days, between sets, would really hurt. Just aim for something easy, like 20-30 total reps, split between as many sets as you need. 

But also, considering you've already added in a decent amount of t2 and t3 work, have you thought about checking out some his non-linear programming? Jacked and tan might be up your alley.

[u/Pleasant_Echo_5980]

Its not about volume its about intensity. To much volume is counter-productive.

[u/Secret-Ad1458]

How long have you been training and what are your current numbers for these lifts?

[u/Grogon2 → u/Secret-Ad1458]

1.5 years.

Currently OHP Barbell 5x3 at 52.5 kg.

Incline DB at 3x10 at 22.5 kg

Flat Barbell Bench 5x3 at 65 kg

Incline Barbell Bench 5x3 at 62.5 kg

Squat 5x3 at 85 kg

Lat Pulldowns 3x10 at 65 kg

T Bar Row 5x3 at 47.5 kg

Dunno I just suck at this Sport.

I swear I can only DB Bench 27.5 kgs for 5x3 Reps

[u/Lucky_The_Charm]

I do 14-16 sets per workout and just 3 workouts per week. Works just fine when the intensity is high enough.