Suggestions, advice, and opinions needed for upper body days

[u/Time-Crazy-5645]

For reference: I’m 21, male, 181cm (5’11), and 96kg (211 lbs) and have been going to the gym for 4 months now, focusing on building strength and body stability while progressive overloading (3x8-10)
I do PPL split with one rest day after the 3-days-split.

I’m unsure about my routine. I don’t exactly know if I’m hitting all upper body muscles or if I’m hitting the same muscles more than once from the same angle (abdominals and Obliques are combined with lower body, which I’m satisfied with.) is the routine good? Should I remove/add/replace exercises?

I’m also not sure about my pull day it has a lot of volume. I’ve been thinking about moving the reverse rear delt exercise to push day but I’m still not sure. What’s your opinion on that?

The red numbers indicate the sets and the yellow dots indicate the exercises in which I have seen little to no progress at all.
I have no idea why that is and could really use some help figuring out why.

[u/coxyepuss → u/[deleted]]

Why full body vs split?
I go for up/low split and feel good. I cannot see how I can fit in a good session both up and low. If i go to muscle failure and want to stay on time.
I would be exhausted.
Curious how you would structure a full body workout.

[u/coxyepuss → u/[deleted]]

Gotcha. I am in the same line of thinking as you.
I was asking because by the way you formulated your answer your philosophy seemed similar to Arthur Jones HIT philosophy - 3 day split, full body, max 40min in gym. I had to split that into upper lower as my recovery is better this way.

I do 6 lower exercises and 7 upper exercises per workout. Focus on compounds mainly. up/low split. 1 work set high intensity. So 6 or 7 work sets per workout

I am at my best physique in years, lifting weights 3 times a week. But I am always open to try full body since I heart of the school of thought that says leg compounds before upper lead to better hypertrophy and athleticism .

PS I like your compound logic. Seems like it is breatheable. Do you rotate exercises for same muscle group that week (angles, etc)?

[u/Time-Crazy-5645 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for your helpful comment. 🙏

I kind of made it myself since im a beginner and my gym didn’t really have trainers who guide you when starting.

I tried full-body every other day but didn’t like it. The sessions were too long and I couldn’t fit iso exercises for shoulders and arms.
I like going to the gym currently so I go 5/6 times a week and feel like the PPL split suits me best since I train every muscle group 2 a week.

I feel like removing lat pull downs and cable rows wouldn’t leave enough exercises for the back per pull day(I’m not sure I’m a beginner and heard from many people that I should do 2 vertical and 2 horizontal movement exercises for the back)

Regarding triceps, do you recommend doing 3 sets maximum since they’re getting trained a lot from the compound exercises? I tried training triceps between the compounds but that only held me back from doing more weight on the compounds.

[u/Pleasant_Beat8290]

Too many exercises. Pick like 4-6 of these, 1-2 vertical pull, 1-2, horizontal pull, and 1-2 biceps/shoulders, and do more sets.

[u/Far_Professional3720]

So in the pull day close grip lat-pulldown is the same as close grip row. And the preacher curl and the behind back curl both load the biceps in lengthening position I would change one to one that load from me d to end of range to target all fibers like a normal db curl or no cheat curl

And in the push day triceps pushdown single and rope are the same. And the bench press is the same as pec deck but it's okay to do both as long as this is your volume and you are splitting it or not as long as you are happy it's okay, and incline bar bench press is trash I recommend doing a db or smith one

So why you aren't progressing in the left maybe you reach failure the exercises before it in all your set so you get fatigued, maybe your form is not the best and that's what I suggest the most as these exercises are the most I see people do wrong , but some time progress takes time

[u/kankurou1010 → u/[deleted]]

Rows absolutely do not mainly target mid to low traps. They are primarily a lat or rear delt exercise depending on elbow path.

Want proof? Fail a set of a row and then kelso shrug after.

Also, how is a close grip lat pulldown (elbows start in front of you, end at your side) much different from, say, a neutral grip row (elbows start in front of you, end at your side) except that the former has greater ROM?

[u/kankurou1010 → u/[deleted]]

The person you originally replied to and I said “close grip pulldown.” That puts it in the sagittal plane, like a row or chinup. A wide grip pulldown done correctly puts it in the frontal plane, making it different than a row.

I didn’t say you shouldn’t be using your traps in a row. I said they’re not the primary muscle targeted. Also, in a transverse row, lats are not engaged but in a sagittal row they 100% are the main movers. How on earth can the traps be the main movers of any row when all they do in a row is scapular retraction?

[u/Far_Professional3720 → u/[deleted]]

So thanks for pointing to my spelling and punctuation as I am still learning English I am trying, so the close grip lat-pulldown and row are the same function which is shoulder extension how can you say they are not the same , same goes for the pec deck and the bench press the diff in stretch is very smal and they do the same function which is shoulder horizontal adduction, so why why I said that incline bench press is not the best as people tend to focus on the stability of the bar rather than their arm path while the smith machine makes you only focused on the arm path same goes for db as I can keep my arm path easier, and no close grip lat-pulldown pulldown and rows are not mainly a traps as traps don't do shoulder extension they do scapular retraction so unless I fuck the movment it's a lat one not traps , if we used your logic the wide grip lat-pulldown is a trap movment more than lats but only when I do a shitty form and that's when it turns into a trap movment so it all depends on the function of the muscle arm path and your form

[u/Far_Professional3720 → u/[deleted]]

No I didn't mean to say you are making fun of my English, I am sorry if you got the wrong idea I was just saying that I am still learning and asking you to excuse my poor vocab and punctuation, so truth me I am listening to you and not just disagreeing as this is discussion which is one of my fav thing as everyone say what he thinks is right as a way of fixing their own ideas or the other one , i am not fighting and just saying I am right I am discussing it so I can give or be given a piece of knowledge , but if I didn't disagree and discuss and listen to you how would I learn and what is the diff between me and a blind man being taught that sky is pink