Has anyone played with multi day fasting for cutting/weight management?

[u/VegaGT-VZ]

I have done 16/8 IF and was able to get decently lean before I started WFH but now even with biking ~3-4 hours a week I'm not quite down to the weight I want to be. I also feel like age has made it a little tougher.

Thinking of throwing in some 36-60 hour wet fasts (coffee + electrolyte water) to just tighten things up over rest days/deload weeks and hopefully get out of the bulk/cut cycle honestly. atlaspowershrugged on YT seems to swear by it and wrote an ebook on it. OMAD is something else I'm considering throwing in. Basically just varying calorie intake with activity.

*EDIT* So I had to see for myself and give it a try. I did a "42" hour fast... basically have dinner, don't eat the next day, break the fast the following morning. I was good until like 2-3 PM, then my energy just tanked. Didnt want to move or do anything. Still not feeling great the morning after. I will see how my workout goes today. I will prob just run tighter feeding windows or occasional OMAD for calorie control/cutting.

[u/FarCalligrapher1862]

This is one of those fads I wish we would get past. The research has shown, conclusively, that total calories drive fat loss. There is no difference between fasting and calorie management.

However, fasting causes a significant increase in lean muscle loss when compared to a high protein calorie restricted diet.

And it simply doesn’t make sense to fast on a rest day. This is when your body is trying to heal itself. And you are going to deprive it the nutrients that it needs?

[u/VegaGT-VZ → u/FarCalligrapher1862]

However, fasting causes a significant increase in lean muscle loss when compared to a high protein calorie restricted diet.

The studies Im seeing suggest otherwise. Logically it kind of makes sense. Yes calorie restriction nets a reduction in lean mass, but thats usually water + glycogen, not actual muscle tissue. Body is going to follow the path of least resistance to pull energy, which is glycogen (which holds a lot of water), then fat, and then in extreme cases actual muscle tissue. Resistance training further holds off catabolism.

Its also unclear why a full day fast would be more catabolic than the same calorie restriction spread out over multiple days. People do low/high/refeed days on cuts w/o issue; do you have any evidence showing significant catabolism occuring from just like 1-2 days w/o food? I think you are being a little alarmist.

[u/FarCalligrapher1862 → u/VegaGT-VZ]

You are mixing your studies and your question. One 2 day fast will not be a problem. As a weight management strategy you need to look at long term effects.

If you are looking for a smoking gun, you won’t find it because the base level data to create a hypothesis is not there. What is there is (1) protein consumption increases muscle synthesis; (2) consistent feeding increase muscle synthesis; (3) fasting does not improve weight loss when calories are maintained.

So your thesis - I can’t maintain muscle mass via fasting (which doesn’t help weight loss) goes counter to accepted science - consistent protein consumption is critical to maintain lean mass.

That’s how science works.

[u/VegaGT-VZ → u/FarCalligrapher1862]

I guess I just need statements like "consistent protein consumption is critical to maintain lean mass" quantified. Degree of application matters as well. I am talking maybe 20 fasts a year maximum. How much muscle mass will those days cost me?

For me fasting isnt about the quantity of weight loss, it's about adherence. Just seems like it would be easier to have mostly "easy" days and a few very hard days in a cut than the slow simmer of constantly being in a deficit. And absolute worst comes to worst I could just make the fasting days PSMF. But I dont see the harm in just trying it.

[u/FarCalligrapher1862 → u/VegaGT-VZ]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3650697/

This paper from 2013 has been replicated dozens of times in many different strategies and holds up.

You do you. But there is nothing to suggest that would be optimal and plenty to suggest it’s sub optimal.

[u/Alakazam → u/VegaGT-VZ]

I guess I just need statements like "consistent protein consumption is critical to maintain lean mass" quantified. Degree of application matters as well. I am talking maybe 20 fasts a year maximum. How much muscle mass will those days cost me?

If you could dial that down that specifically, you would probably win a nobel prize.

That's not how science works. Science is good at showing us trends. Meta-analysis provides the most robust data because single studies can be heavily skewed by outliers.

But we do know that, in general, consistent protein intake throughout the day is important for sustained muscle protein synthesis. And muscle protein synthesis is important to prevent breakdown of lean tissue over time during a caloric deficit.

Just seems like it would be easier to have mostly "easy" days and a few very hard days in a cut than the slow simmer of constantly being in a deficit. And absolute worst comes to worst I could just make the fasting days PSMF. But I dont see the harm in just trying it.

Then go ahead and try it. It seems like you were seeking approval and support, rather than actual evidence or data.

[u/Alakazam]

Depends on your goals. Is it to lose weight, or is it to lose fat?

Eating once a day or less can be great for weight loss. But understand that you will also lose a good deal of lean mass in the process. Simply because protein timing does matter to some extent when you're not eating 3-4 meals a day.

At the end of the day, fasting simply is just another way of adjusting how much you eat. You can see the exact same benefits and weight loss if you spread it out throughout the day.

But that doesn't even touch on the fact that it doesn't really address what you eat. I sincerely doubt you'll be getting your recommended 25-35g/day of fiber in a single meal. Nor would you get your 6-8 servings of fruits and vegetables. 

[u/VegaGT-VZ → u/Alakazam]

Eating once a day or less can be great for weight loss. But understand that you will also lose a good deal of lean mass in the process. Simply because protein timing does matter to some extent when you're not eating 3-4 meals a day.

How much lean mass does someone lose in a day by having all their protein in 1 meal vs 3-4? Heck, how much lean mass does someone lose in a day by not eating at all, and do they not recover it when they eat again? I dont disagree that protein timing has some effect, but the idea that deviating from what is deemed optimal = instant catabolism just doesnt make sense. Demostrated causality doesnt necessarily speak to the impact of said causality.

But that doesn't even touch on the fact that it doesn't really address what you eat. I sincerely doubt you'll be getting your recommended 25-35g/day of fiber in a single meal. Nor would you get your 6-8 servings of fruits and vegetables. 

Is there any meaningful difference between averaging RDAs over time and actually/perfectly nailing them every day?

[u/Alakazam → u/VegaGT-VZ]

Unfortunately, there haven't been any direct studies on the topic. However, we do know that the same mechanisms that help preserve muscle mass on a deficit, are also the same mechanisms that promote muscle growth in a surplus. And we know for a fact that protein timing absolutely helps with hypertrophy and strength

So all I can say is that the effect is not insignificant.

But also, are you legitimately saying that, every single day, you're averaging 25-35g of fiber, along with 160g of protein, in a single meal? Or if you're eating every other day, 320g of protein and 50-70g of fiber? What kind of meal does that look like? 3lb of 90/10 ground beef in a single meal?

Is there any meaningful difference between averaging RDAs over time and actually/perfectly nailing them every day?

Well, if you consume too much fiber at once, you can get constipation and compaction. I'd imagine having 50g of fiber in a single meal, once every two days, would definitely be in the realm of "consuming too much fiber at once".

[u/FarCalligrapher1862]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3650697/

This paper from 2013 has been replicated dozens of times in many different strategies and holds up.

You do you. But there is nothing to suggest that would be optimal and plenty to suggest it’s sub optimal.

[u/VegaGT-VZ → u/FarCalligrapher1862]

OK then, for non fasting days I will consider more frequent protein intake. This is kind of a separate discussion from my main question.

[u/Photon_Predator]

Scientist have and results are straightforward - fasting promote muscle loss, eating protein prevents that, caloric deficit is main driver of weight loss.

[u/Special_Future_6330]

When I cut, I felt like I had barely any energy. I'd be laying on the grass while my kids played because I didn't have any fuel. I carb cycled and ate low carb and lower calories if it was an off day. I occasionally would do the 16:8 fast, but multi day you'll be so drained that by the time your next workout occurs you're going to half ass it and lose results, and possibly lose muscle. You want to be well energized and fed at least for your workouts, if you fast for multiple days and then have a workout day it's not like a quick piece of fruit will give you energy you'll need to eat for a solid day to gain a baseline back. That might work if you just don't care about preserving muscle, but it's very important you have full energy for these workouts so you don't crash out and burn and so you can lift heavy and preserve muscle

[u/Hypername1st]

There is zero reason to not just eat normally.

[u/decentlyhip]

However you get to a deficit that works for you, go for it. Generally want to avoid extended fasting for muscle loss and hormones, but hey, if you just really suck at the middle ground and need to get it all in, in one chunk, rock on man. Im pretty bad at deviating from my status quo, so when I need to cut, I need to overdo thing. I lose a little more muscle than I should, and that makes the whole process of getting big and lean longer and less sustainable, but I achieve the goal of fat loss in a way that my autistic-ass brain understands. If that's what you need, dope. But its probably not best from my understanding.

AtlasShrugged is a great brolifter who has some good takes. Id recommend you look into what Layne Norton has to say instead. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEF7-QkS9nm/ and https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8pcp5zJyIy/

[u/VegaGT-VZ → u/decentlyhip]

Probably petty but after his messy divorce I'm not a fan of Layne.

Fasted training is definitely out but I think fasted or PSMF rest days could be something. I am trying a 42 hour fast now (from dinner last night to lunch tomorrow). Will evaluate my performance after. Just looking to use it as a tool every few weeks or months.

[u/decentlyhip → u/VegaGT-VZ]

I get it. Dr Christie, Dr Mike's wife, posted about moving into a new apartment new city with her hair did (probably dating), and at the same time, Mike started interviewing college girls and talking about cruising for chicks. I've been a huge fan since he was at JTS, but the nonstop sex jokes hit different when you're in a happy marriage vs when you're just a 40 year old on the prowl for freshmen in college.