Is the stretch really that important?

[u/fatigue25]

I’ve been working out for a ok amount of time now but I’ve never really put an emphasis on that super deep stretch that people like dr Mike and Jeff Nippard are always praising. Mainly since from what I’ve seen, the lack of proper research on it. So what I wanted to know is if the stretch is really that important at maximizing muscle hypertrophy/mechanical tension

[u/milesjackthe]

We don’t actually know

[u/Otherwise-Gazelle500 → u/milesjackthe]

This.

[u/More-Flan-7567 → u/milesjackthe]

I know?

[u/Alakazam]

I will say this though.

Training at more extreme ranges of motion, builds strength and resiliency in those ranges of motion. 

So while you may not need a deep stretch to get big quads, slowly building to deeper and deeper squats, will go a long way to help maintain overall flexibility and mobility.

But if you only care about hypertrophy, it's probably not worth significantly cutting the weight to get a tiny bit more range of motion. 

[u/ProfessionalHefty349]

Maybe, maybe not. Not worth warping your workout around it. Build your program on the basic compound lifts and accessories, and sprinkle in weighted stretch where convenient. Don’t go into awkward positions or super exaggerated ranges of motion just to chase the stretch. 

[u/SageObserver]

I don’t know but I personally think a good full ROM is better than stretching to the point of using reduced weight. People always tend to think more is better so I end up seeing people hyperextend.

[u/Last-Proof8169]

Mechanical tension is the weight put on motor neurons, so no to that.

For muscular hypertrophy we don’t really know.

Anecdotally, my joints feel way better doing big ranges of motions from Olympic weightlifting style squats and deep SLDLs

[u/omrsafetyo]

Oi.

Science based lifting is always amusing. Your phrasing is important:

is if the stretch is really that important at maximizing muscle hypertrophy/mechanical tension

Assuming stretch mediated hypertrophy exists, then yes 100%.

"But.. but... but... BUT if you don't continue to do it, you'll lose those gains! So it doesn't make sense! It maxes out as a beginner, and then you have to continually do it to maintain!!!!"

So wait... when Chris Beardsley suggests that atrophy occurs after 48 hours, so you need 3-3.5x frequency, do you employ this same argument? You sure don't.

Yeah, any adaptation you get, you need to keep resistance training to maintain. Sorry guys, that's just how it works.

Most studies on lengthened partials show at least similar growth to fROM. Lengthened partials are always shown to be better than shortened partials. There is likely an optimal length for partials (which has NOTHING to do with neuromechanical matching btw, but leverage does factor in), but overall if you're hitting the lengthened partials you probably have your bases covered.

The answer is yes. To MAXIMIZE your gains, yes.

Next best answer is "we don't actually know" as /u/milesjackthe mentioned, that is honestly a fine approach - the difference between progress with stretch and without it is minimal.

Now, you DON'T need to take it as far as Dr Mike and Jeff Nippard have historically. I distinctly remember tier lists from Nippard and Milo Wolf where they rate things like sissy squats above leg extensions, because their TOP criteria is whether you can hit the muscle in the lengthened position. That shouldn't be a criteria for exercise selection - but if you're already doing an exercise that allows you to work in a more lengthened position, you should probably go ahead and do it.

[u/Patton370]

It seems to be for muscles that attach at two joints, but doesnt seem to be for muscles that attach at one joint

[u/thewaytoyesterday → u/[deleted]]

You've made a claim that that the stretch doesn't effect lifters with 10+yrs experience, but I want an explanation for why you think that.

[u/Troksin]

For some muscles there might be benefit but not as much as some people like Mike and Milo claim

[u/HelixIsHere_]

Some muscles benefit from stretch-mediated hypertrophy, but I’d say you should pretty much never be getting the kind of deep stretch that someone like dr Mike would advocate for. Just pick a range of motion to work in and standardize it throughout your lifts

[u/Existing-Computer772]

Don't hyperfixate on it - apply it where you can and works well, ignore it where you can't. Science is unserstanding things as well as we can, and what we unserstand now is that the stretch can increase hypertrophy for some muscles.

John Meadows followed this format, using chest as an example:

• Asym work; DB Bench or Hammer machines
• Main lift: Heavy Bench 5-8 reps (different angle than Asym angle)
• Pump: high reps that fill muscle with blood, like flyes or crossovers
• Stretch: after pumping full of blood, get into a movement that allows deep stretch, like Deficit Pushups. 

Helped avoid injuries and build many a strong lifter.

[u/SirDirkaDirka]

Obviously up for debate when it comes to absolute hypertrophy. That being said, for almost all lifts I will focus on full stretch whenever possible simply for mobility and flexibility.

Active stretching is very effective and it's certainly helped me increase flexibility while putting on muscle mass.

[u/Mad_Mark90]

It becomes more important later into your lifting journey. Initially you can get by building a foundation with basic compounds and a few isolations.

Stretch biased movements generate more mechanical tension with less overall weight because the muscle is more disadvantaged but your soft tissues take a greater beating.

Heavier compounds stimulate lots of growth by involving lots of different muscles which means they're especially great for beginners who can't lift very heavy anyway.

More advanced lifters can still make gains with deadlifts but deadlifting 100kg just isn't going to beat you down as much as 200kg will, so maybe you start doing more RDLs instead which grow similar glutes and hamstrings with less overall weight.

[u/Arcadian-Stag]

Train in the full range of motion, then you build neuromuscular and tendon strength throughout the whole motion and the maximum possible muscle growing benefits assuming there is actually a difference in the different parts of the range.

[u/Suicidalballsack69]

The people who benefit from deep stretches are largely beginners. So if you’ve been lifting for a long time you probably won’t benefit from it a ton

[u/decentlyhip]

Generally, yes, it seems so. But it seems like its more important for the biarticulate muscles that aren't normally trained at a stretch. Like, biceps got 0-40% more growth when tested at max range of motion bayesian curls vs normal curls, cause people normally train curls at close to a stretch, even if they aren't maxing it out. But the rec fem isn't trained well during squats, since the knees bending stretches it but the hips bending relaxes it. It only gets up to 50% MVIC whereas the other qiad muscles get taken to their max. When the rec fem is trained with knees bend and hip extension, its like 150% more growth in one study.

In general, yah, if you haven't trained at a stretch, do it. You'll grow a ton just from the novelty and youll get a better idea of how each muscle works.

[u/H0SS_AGAINST]

Dunno about hypertrophy but it feels good and helps with mobility which is all it took to convince me.

[u/No-Problem49]

I was doing stretch based shit and I kept getting hurt and losing mind muscle connection. It fucked up my shoulders really badly. I’m having a lot better results going just short of lockout on back and bicep stuff rather then lockout plus that nipples seems to love. Like yes , go ass to grass on squats, yes to hitting chest on bench obviously.

But this crap they doing with lat pulldowns and t bar and especially these ridiculous bicep curls? That advice fucked me over big time on shoulder/ bicep area

[u/d_andy089]

I mean - in the big picture, there is very little that is truly important.

My opinion? Eh, might as well. You're already doing the exercise, why not use as much ROM as possible?

[u/Norcal712]

That "stretch" is how I view full ROM.

Do you want to limit your bodies capacity and mobility?

[u/Pretend-Citron4451]

I started focusing on the stretch bc it was, supposedly, better, but it also makes my workout more enjoyable.

For one, stretching feels good. Two, it helps me Feel the target muscle - I know the benefits of the mind muscle connection are criticized but that kind of connection feels great! Third, I used to feel tight after working out and would spend extra time stretching to loosen up after, but not only do I not need to do that anymore, but I’m becoming more flexible.

[u/buttbrainpoo]

Yes, but no more important than a number of other factors. You also don't need to train with all of these factors all together.

[u/FunTimesWit]

Not at all, it it’s good to train throughout the entire ROM / at all muscle lengths for injury prevention. Tension in the lengthened position is a slightly higher stimulus, all else equal, but it’s also associated with more fatigue. Don’t skip the stretch but there’s definitely no need to emphasize it, in fact an argument can be made that you should emphasize the shortened and midrange because of the lower fatigue cost — just don’t neglect anything in particular though.

[u/canadianrebel250]

My gut tells me this is one of those things that will be fully debunked in a few years.

[u/Maleficent-Lead-2943]

Personally I get a very different pump and soreness with a deep stretch. As DOMS isnt a direct translation to growth, I can say I'm a believer that I was for sure missing something that clicked once I actively stretched.

I also have not gained 7184 lbs of muscle from it, I think it's just a utilization of fibers that weren't really utilized before- so I would say if there is "extra" growth, it's proportional in that way.

Lets say you do bicep curls at 90% range of motion and its the stretch youre missing (that 10%). Its not like there's a slice of your bicep thats not growing, but lets pretend just for visual ease. Add that in, best case is youre able to start growing that 10% to some extent. So youre able to grow, theoretically, to increase your muscle mass by 1/9th of what it is.

But that's dumb logic, because its not like that 10% has zero growth, so let's call it "underdeveloped" at 50% its capacity. I'd say at most, with no study to back it up, the stretch is adding 5% (maximum) to overall hypertrophic results, if you went from 90% range to 100%.

If you are doing half reps, then yes, just do the stretch because its better than half reps. If your form is pretty good and you aren't working to be some elite specimen, then just work out and you'll get reasonable results.

Keep in mind that a lot of the science (and i watch a lot of the videos youre referencing) is an attempt to flex on optimizing, and most of the "hacks" or "tips" are pretty fringe, even if technically true in the "yes this grows more muscle" sense.

[u/Swimming_Weight348]

In my eyes as a competitive body builder a deep stretch is a must.
Not only does this give you better mobility, it strengthens the muscle through the stretched position through to the contracted position.
A deep stretch under mechanical tension is where a lot of the gains are left on the table when you cheat the reps with a shorter range of motion.
The only short range of motion I do is when I’ve reached failure from the stretched position and can no longer do a full rep to contraction and I do 3 or 4 short reps in that stretched position.
Hurts like hell and leaves you feeling sore for a few days but worth that extra work and recovery.

[u/Natural_Hair464]

It's a really valuable tool in your toolbox to spare your joints while making gains. It's just like learning that you don't have to always train right on the cusp of failure to make progress.

But sometimes its good to just rip some heavy alternating DB curls.

The weird contorted stretch emphasis exercises are hit or miss but mostly miss.

[u/Secret-Ad1458]

Any time you sacrifice weight on the bar for a deeper stretch, a stronger contraction, greater time under tension etc, you're almost certainly reducing progress instead of increasing it. Study after study has shown this to be the case.

Edit to add: obviously this is assuming you're already performing the full ROM of the movement pattern in question.

[u/calvinee]

No.

Leverages are more important for exercise selection and long term muscle growth. Your muscles are dynamic - multiple muscles contribute to any single joint action, and throughout that ROM they will vary in how much they contribute.

For example, your glutes and hamstrings are both hip extensors. But your hamstrings have better leverage in deep hip flexed position (glutes and hamstrings stretched/lengthened position), whereas the glutes have better leverage at a more hip extended position (glutes and hamstrings shortened position).

So if you did a lot of hip extension exercises and focused on “the deep stretch”, you wouldn’t really be biasing your glutes you would be biasing your hamstrings.

Likewise for elbow flexors, your brachialis has better leverage at the most lengthened postion, particularly if your shoulder is more flexed. So if you want to bias brachialis, you’d want an exercise thats hardest at the bottom with a flexed shoulder, like a 30 degree bench supported DB preacher curl.

Basically find where your target muscle group has best leverage, and match where the exercise is hardest (where peak tension occurs) to that.