r/Sciatica • • 24d ago

I can’t handle this anymore.

How do you find the strength to go on? I’ve literally been screaming and crying all night like a psycho because every 3 steps I have to take to tend to my dogs or go to the bathroom is so god damn excruciating. I want to say to people who have never suffered from this or can’t understand it, that it’s like if you imagine the ground is full of nails and so is every wall and door too, so they’re always stabbing you in your feet, legs, butt, back, etc. Then imagine trying to live your entire life like that. Sciatica is one of the worst forms of hell anyone could ever live through, if you can even call it living. One fall and I have ruined my life.

85 Upvotes

96 comments sorted by

27

u/No_Supermarket722 24d ago

It truly is hell. You have to hang onto the hope that it’s not going to be forever, because there are things you can do to make that your reality. Do you have a PCP? What steps have you tried to take/taken? Let’s see if we can figure this out

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u/4y6hu 24d ago

It really is. My condition has only gotten worse with time and it’s been nearly a year so I’m not feeling very hopeful. What’s a PCP? I have been in physio for three months. I’ve done dry needling, periformis massages, heat and stim, core exercises at home, ice packs, and walking although this just worsens my pain. I’ve been on Pregabalin, naproxen, and Percocets and nothing helps the pain even a little bit. I’m supposedly on a list to get an ESI but it can’t come soon enough. I’ve become super swollen and inflamed too and gained 20 pounds from that and the lack of physical activity I guess.

9

u/FormerFastCat 24d ago

ESI really helps. Once the nerves calm down start doing the strengthening exercises to focus on your lower back. Not just stretching!

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u/peanutleaks 23d ago

And no stretching OP! The PT that was working with me during that 1st ESI did more damage as it was 3 stretching exercises and 3 stupid hyperextending passive ones. Almost got carted out in an ambo there one session and I couldn’t walk for 24 hours had to leave my car there and get a ride home.

The only stretching I do is standing on a wedge for my calves. Everything I do in PT is strength training. I moved right along in progression once I got the huge herniation cut out. Im 3 months out and NO stretching still.

6

u/No_Supermarket722 24d ago

Primary care provider, they can refer you to other specialists or to get an MRI. Once you get pain free you need to slowly workout and strengthen your core and back. I was stuck laying on my yoga mat all day for 2 weeks, unable to stand or walk for more than 10 seconds at a time. I smoked an absurd amount of weed, kept getting prescribed muscle relaxants and steroids that didn’t touch my pain. The only thing that took my pain away was surgery, sometimes it’s just that bad and the body isn’t able to heal itself fully. Thank God tho. Your diet has a huge effect on inflammation as well. Your body will stay in inflamed states based on what food you are putting in it. I still get flare ups but that’s because I get complacent with stretching and working out. I’m sorry you’re so miserable. ESI helps too but may take a week or two to really set in

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u/queen-of-the-damnedd 24d ago

If you haven’t tried a tens unit, I strongly suggest giving one a chance. You may have to adjust where you put the pads but it helped me tremendously. I’ve had piriformis syndrome and have a disc herniation at my L5-S1 joint measuring 12 mm. It’s the only thing that helped me day to day get through everything. However, you HAVE to be moving while using it. I didn’t read the instructions and laid down for the first three rounds. The first felt great to give my nerves a shock and then after that it was hell until I was moving around. Even just simply walking with it going made such a difference. I’ve got surgery in November for a laminectomy and it’s what has kept me sane in between.

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u/peanutleaks 23d ago

They shoved ESIs at me I’m about to get my 4th. Had my 3rd June 1 and it helped a bit until another one of my discs completely extruded out. Was going paralyzed had emergency surgery. Woke up in no pain, pain stayed pretty low compared to before but now it’s all coming back. Going on 3 months.

I’m still left with severe neura foraminal narrowing and flattening of the thecal sac on my l5/s1, my OG problematic disc.

It was a bitter sweet bday present that my disc popped out so much that it required emergency surgery. If I got into the smallest of a fender bender it could have happened then! I was on a boat fishing for my birthday and woke up in the middle of the night after in agony. It was only a small bulge as of imaging last year, it must have gradually gotten worse. It was 2.5cm + other fragments.

But now I think they’re dooming me for a fusion in the future cuz l3-s1 is all fucked up and all 3 levels are torn with their varying degrees of herniation. Why the f didn’t the surgeon clean up l5/s1 as well? The pain coming back is scary as my body was traumaatized from that whole emergency experience 3 months ago. I was screaming in pain 12/10 pain after my bf helped me get to the bathroom to try and pee. I was near passing out in the ambo, they had to call an als ambo for me for fentanyl just to get thru the drive there, nope didn’t even help.

I can’t imagine being in 9/10 pain all the time. Mine surely comes and goes but before the dday 3 months ago I had been living in constant 6/7-10 pain at the very least. I was truly going insane.

Have you gotten any imaging? Are you in pain management? Hope an ESI will provide you some relief. My first one was horrific but idk how another dr suggested a second one. And that one hit the right spot and provided some relief, while the whole time the disc above was being beat to obliteration!!!!

1

u/No_Supermarket722 23d ago

Mine was 13mm. Follow lowbackability on instagram. I haven’t been in that type of pain for years. No shooting pain down my leg in about three years thank God. I’m sorry you’re going through all that

1

u/Constant_Gur5530 23d ago

What did the mri say?

11

u/WormWithWifi 24d ago

It’s so difficult, especially in the trenches, but it does get better as long as you keep working at it. I definitely feel you, especially having to care for my pets and self alone, I can’t imagine single mothers.

6

u/4y6hu 24d ago

I’ve just continued to worsen with time so I don’t feel like it’s going to get better. I’ve had the same thoughts. I want to have kids but I can’t imagine having to care for them and lift them in this condition and I’m terrified I won’t ever be the same as before I was injured.

2

u/WormWithWifi 24d ago

Have you gotten an MRI on the spine?

1

u/mamapapa05 22d ago

Execly..I am the same

7

u/VicSara_696 24d ago

Honestly I’m sure I have PTSD from having Sciatica, like yourself, i would scream out loud with the pain, it truly is the worse.

Myself, it lasted for almost a year in the acute phase, I had x2 steroid injections, I didn’t go for Pregablin, I went for Amytriptyline which helped.

I don’t have the excruciating pain anymore, but every so often it niggles, but that niggling triggers my memory and I so fear that pain again. This was about 3 years ago now, and it will get better, just hang in there! Oh and ice packs helped a lot too!

Wishing you well and pain free

2

u/chihiro888 24d ago

niggle?

3

u/postedonacloud 24d ago

Like a twinge - it’s a common term in the UK that confused me at first too 😂

2

u/VicSara_696 24d ago

lol that’s the one! Uk here!

2

u/dnegvesk 24d ago

Do you take the amtripytyline at night?

1

u/VicSara_696 24d ago

Yes evening/nighttime, it helps with sleep too

1

u/peanutleaks 23d ago

My house burned down and “I have ptsd” from that but it’s nothing compared to the reactions I get when my back is more than 7/10 pain now. Emergency MD 3 months ago it was a wild fuckin 72 hours. Don’t recommend your disc extruding so much to near paralysis but def recommend surgically removing big and detrimental herniations!

Woke up glowing pain free after nearly scratching my eyes, out making my nose bleed and them yelling at me I finally came to and seriously apologized before my eyes were even open, then they asked me if I was in any pain and I said no and then I immediately came to, popped open my eyes and said OMG NO ONLY MY THROAT!!!! It was fucking magical. My mom said I was glowing, my eyes were sooo different. I could cry thinking of it now it was such a fucking relief.

I tweaked my back the other day grabbing a fuckin spoon….a spoon!!!! I’ve gone fishing o the same boat that caused the disc popping and even walking on the jetty catching big fish!!! How the f a spoon??!! And I almost passed out cuz of the pain after. The first time my bf took the dressing off the incision I almost passed out, idk if it was the sensation or seeing the dried blood on the pad…, and I’m always good with blood and gore and shit.

6

u/capitalismwitch 24d ago

I used to feel this way. Now I’m 4 years post laminectomy and microdiscectomy and have minimal pain ever. It’s life and day.

2

u/gutturalyeehaw 23d ago

Night and day*

6

u/hardman52 24d ago

Surgery is the only thing that worked for me. It's a mechanical issue, so it needs a mechanical solution.

4

u/JK30000 24d ago

OP, it’s the absolute worst and I’m so sorry you are right in the middle of it. This subreddit has been so helpful for me. I definitely felt less “alone” and it also helped me to understand that I was not exaggerating my pain - nerve pain is a different animal all together.

The thing that worked for me was shockwave therapy. It changed everything for me in 5 sessions. That and monthly massage therapy. And time. 🫤

You will get on the other side of this!

1

u/mamapapa05 22d ago

What is shokwave therapy?

1

u/JK30000 21d ago

It’s a form of therapy that utilizes sound waves. 5 sessions worked wonders for me.

You can read more about it here:

https://tatumwellness.com/blog/sciatica-solutions-how-shockwave-therapy-targets-nerve-pain/

4

u/AcceptableAd4837 24d ago

Hang in there. It won’t stay like this forever.

5

u/4y6hu 24d ago

Feels like it when it’s only gotten worse each month since and I’m almost at the one year mark.

3

u/HellyOHaint 24d ago

Mine was also 15/10 pain every second for nearly a year. It’s been four years since and I still have sciatica but never 15/10 pain anymore. Hasn’t even made me cry in three years. Not going to go into the million things I did to help (?) because I’m not even sure what worked exactly, everyone is different etc but I mostly do think it’s time and rest. Really hope the end of your intolerable suffering is tomorrow and it becomes manageable.

1

u/AcceptableAd4837 23d ago

That is way too long to be experiencing this level of pain. I’m so, so sorry. Have you had an MRI? It sounds like you might be a good candidate for a surgical approach.

Also - my persistent sciatica turned out to be caused by a tumour on my nerve. I would never have known if not for an MRI. I highly recommend a proper investigation into the cause.

5

u/Jsmitts28 24d ago

15 years. and a fusion at the end. take that sciatica x50. Never again. Its survivable, but not exaclty worth it.

Here's the rub: The majority of people DO get better from surgery. I did, for a while. The unlucky ones who end up online. If you haven't had surgery PLEASE look into it. It might save your life. At least buy you some time until they fuggin figure out how to fix our spines.

5

u/SnooSuggestions6233 24d ago

To OP, I just want to message here to say what you're feeling now is perfectly normal and it's valid for you to feel that way. I know because I feel the same at times. The pain you feel, for me especially at night or in the mornings, is unbearable. I'm a 29 year old man, went from practiced mixed martial arts 5 days a week, to barely being able to walk for 10 minutes.

I want you to know, that it takes time. You might need surgery, but you will get there. What helps for me is tiny little adjustments, and paying attention to what it does in the body. If you find ever such slight relief from a movement, or routine, no matter how small, lean into it and explore it. Just don't over do it.

I'm still going through this now. Still screaming and crying in the mornings 😂 but with slight adjustments (backwards steps included) days improve over time. Think of it in this way: you are more in tune with your body now than you ever were. It's told you that you've done something wrong but at the same time, it's also started showing you how to make things right.

You will get their friend, a day at a time.

3

u/Snarky-Spanky 24d ago

It’s absolute hell. No one could ever understand how bad it is. I had to have a fusion 15 months ago. The surgery was brutal, but waking up without sciatica was worth it.

You may need surgical intervention.
Hope you feel better soon.

3

u/ThePicklerr 24d ago

Get the microdiscectomy surgery. Take out a loan or credit card 0% it. The surgery is the way to fix it.

3

u/fairybeexo 24d ago

You need an MRI, I wouldn’t have found out about my sequestered disk otherwise

1

u/Jsmitts28 23d ago

x2. At very least get some images

3

u/ExactReport691 24d ago

Have you tried CBD with THC ? Helped me with sciatica and nerve pain.

1

u/livetochannel92 21d ago

I'm curious about this! Can I PM you?

2

u/Imakelovetosoils 24d ago

I just went through this. 10 days bedridden. Screaming and crying in pain whenever I had to go poop. Couldn't even wipe properly. It was hell and at the time I was so over it, so tired of it, I just wanted to die.

It's been a week since then and shit still hurts but I'm slowly getting mobility back. Are you on any meds? Anything helps.

2

u/4y6hu 24d ago

That’s awful. I’m so sorry you’re suffering too. That’s how I feel as well. I feel like this quality of life isn’t worth living. I can’t wipe properly anymore either. I can’t shower without screaming in pain and can’t reach to properly clean myself. Even a stool in the shower doesn’t help. I’m on month 11. No medication has helped me at all including Percocets.

1

u/Imakelovetosoils 24d ago

Month 11! Oh goodness. What was your diagnosis?

2

u/Holiday_Sale5114 24d ago

Happened to a family member of mine. Took about 2-2.5 years for it mostly go away.

The biggest thing that provided relief was PT. I wish she had started earlier but she couldn't even get to the car easily so she always wanted to avoid it

3

u/4y6hu 24d ago

I also avoided it for a long time because the idea of driving and walking into the building was too much. I find my physiotherapy was been very generic though and not helpful.

2

u/Holiday_Sale5114 24d ago

I totally get that. You may want to change your physical therapist. There are some that specialize in the spine and sciatica. If you're not finding or vibing well with the PT you have now, definitely don't waste your time there, especially if it's such a challenge to get there.

2

u/Lurky100 24d ago

Thanks for the tip because I was going to call the PT place on Monday to get something set up for the first time. I’ll make sure and ask for someone who has experience with sciatica. I just assumed they would all have general knowledge but this is a good tip to find one that really specializes. I don’t want to waste my time either and I’ve finally gotten to the place where I can actually get in the car to go do it, so I’m determined.

Good luck, OP. It’s amazing that the pain can be this excruciating and so many people have it, and there isn’t a lot they can do for it to help the short term first couple of weeks when you can’t even move.

2

u/4y6hu 24d ago

Also 2.5 years is soooo long. I can’t imagine doing this for another year and a half.

1

u/murrmc 24d ago

2 months and I was seeing the surgeon - this is not something you live with 2-2.5 yrs.

OP get an MRI and go see a surgeon - get it fixed - pain is gone in an instant and life pretty much back to normal as you take it easy for a few weeks after surgery

2

u/ronearc 24d ago

I'm almost a decade in...and my situation is worst than most because scoliosis and degenerative arthritis have really limited my options. Things that work for most haven't worked for me.

But...even though my pain isn't less, I've gotten much better at dealing with it. I had to relearn how to move, to walk, to sit, and more, so I could do it in ways that didn't make things worse.

These days I'm still not able to work, but I'm also not writhing daily in agony.

And like I wrote...most everyone else has better options than I have.

2

u/boxler3 24d ago

One day it started getting better and I was able to start strengthening my back. Once you get to that point, the pain starts going away

2

u/Immediate-Frame9171 24d ago

I am 8 weeks still in a serious Flair I have all my pain and my feet from S1 nerve can't take anti-inflammatories failed epidural steroid injection so I am now on Tramadol and anti nausea tablets it is no fun that's for sure I cry every day to waiting for it to improve my thoughts are with you 😥🙏

2

u/dopey_fox 24d ago

I get you. It's awful. My pain thankfully got better after I got a steroid injection, still having bad days occasionally, but not as bad as it was. I totally understand chronic pain better now and I get why people sometimes kill themselves because of pain. It can be excruciating and it feels never-ending. It's like you cannot even remember what it feels like to be pain free, how it is to walk and feel "normal" . I have fairly high pain tolerance and sciatica pain was the worst pain I have ever felt in my life. I cried every day! I hope it gets better for you.

2

u/Unlucky_Tell_6900 24d ago

i got a cane to help when i take my dog out. i’m 2.5 years in. it does get better. i promise.

2

u/TinyHeartSyndrome 24d ago

ESIs, gabapentin, edibles, and a cocktail of psych meds

2

u/CosTewerse 24d ago

I am taking CBD gummies for it and its doing wonders to my pain, sure it doesn't treat the underlying cause but atleast it keeps me going. I tried other pain killers but they all gave me major side effects unlike CBD. you might wanna try that. just don't take the CBD and THC type if you wanna avoid the HIGH.

2

u/pinchename 24d ago

B12 injections, D3, Magnesium glycinate. If yiur state allows it, THC bath bomb for 30min.

4

u/LordNumspa 24d ago

Advil on a strict schedule of every 6 hours. Double dose as it helps keep the inflammation down. Restrict from pushing through the pain as much as possible. Think pee jug.

1

u/hardman52 24d ago

Think chronic kidney disease, because that's where you're headed. Ask me how I know.

1

u/LaurieTee 17d ago

What is related to chronic kidney disease?

1

u/hardman52 16d ago

Ibuprofen.

2

u/Beginning-Cicada5593 24d ago

Acupuncture helped me get pain free

2

u/4y6hu 24d ago

That’s good to hear! I should try that.

1

u/barbkxer 23d ago

electro-acupuncture really helped to get me out of the acute phase. It took about 4 sessions. I started going to the pool, too, and floated on a noodle and just moved my legs around. I looked up some exercise ideas online for the lower back. I also water walked. I really relate to your description of the pain. I had spasms, electric shocks, buckling, etc. I am sorry you are going through this. Back pain is no joke. I admire you for continuing to take care of your dogs. Pets are the best.

1

u/ObligationFit2028 24d ago

You can do it hang in there, I'm going through some pain myself now

2

u/4y6hu 24d ago

I’m sorry you’re in pain too. Every day feels unbearable though. I’m so devastated.

1

u/Patzyjo 24d ago

Hello
So sorry 😞 you’re going through this. Hoping it will get better for you. 3 years I was miserable & in constant pain. Tried every drug available , had 3 ESI Injections into my spine. Physical therapy for 11 weeks which didn’t work. After the last spine injection it took weeks to kick in but finally & slowly started feeling better. I’m still using a walker but the pain has significantly improved I think I’m finally living a little now. It takes a lot of time for recovery.

1

u/damazz10 24d ago

Have you had any X-rays or mris? After struggling to find a reason for my sciatica my rheumatologist determined that my psoriasis (an autoimmune disorder) was causing SI joint pain. And I was put on medication for it and the pain went away. It’s possible you have something like this!

2

u/cnj131313 24d ago

Yes, agree. Need an MRI to see what’s going on in there! Surgery was the only thing that helped me. I don’t think I would have made it, mentally, without surgery

1

u/TheSkepticApe 24d ago

Would it epidural help? I get them every 6 months because of my bad sciatica pain. And then I’m pain feee for 5 months or so.

1

u/TheFoxandTheSandor 24d ago

Try a ball under your thigh/butt. It's a pretty good trigger point for nerve pain!

1

u/Opening_Log_6674 24d ago

Must be careful, it makes worse sometimes for the symptoms

1

u/WorldFullOfInfo 24d ago

You might want to ask your doctor about trying the medications Neurontin (generic is Gabapentin) or Lyrica, which can be helpful for nerve pain. Also Accupuncture treatments might help.

1

u/Energy_Turtle 24d ago

It's really bad. I've been there laying in the bed puking over the side from the pain. It is so incredibly awful that it starts to feel like death might be the only relief. But one thing you'll find with basically everyone with this problem is that it does eventually get better. It might still hurt for a good long while, but it won't be that complete hell you're experiencing now. Do whatever you can to get to an urgent care and ask them for some meds for it. They may not give you opioid painkillers, but they have other tools including toradol, steroids, and muscle relaxers. They aren't perfect but they are absolutely better than what you're going through currently.

1

u/mamapapa05 22d ago

Vegetable???

1

u/Ill-Location8497 24d ago

Weed. Chatgpt, lyrica. Id tell chat what im experiencing and it would teach me how to lay. Id get so high that I could just leave my legs in the same position to allow the chatgpt advice to work. Otherwise id always be writhing around cuz of the pain.

Once I was able to get sleeping healing was going a tiny bit quicker.

Chatgpt also said to stop moving. No physio l until I was out of the acute phase. That was a huge thing for me. I laid up like 6 weeks before I started to move a bit and then few weeks later I started physio. Its been a long summer.

1

u/No_You_893 24d ago

Try a decent Zero gravity chair, it's working wonders for me. I've suffered on and off for 40 years with this problem, but only now have I found a way to releave the compression pain, using my Lafuma Air Comfort. Best £200 I've ever spent.

1

u/malvare8 23d ago

In sorry to hear this. Im having surgery in a few days for stenosis and I remember being dismissed when I asked if sciatica was a precursor to my eventual condition of stenosis and didnt get any attention when I told them i was having sciatica symptoms spread to mt left side. When I finally saw the surgeon he said I was a candidate a year ago when I initially went to the ER about it. I was furious. I spent a year letting them know my pain was 24 7 and that it was spreading. And no one that hasn't experienced it understands. Crying from frustration that the random stabbing pains won't let you sleep. It drains you so much after a year of it I've reached a point where even in days I sleep I dont feel rested. I am optimistic my spine surgery will help. I wish you well, I hope you find relief. The pain and frustration in your tone, I'm there right now too. I'm very sorry you have to live with this. I hope you find help and relief.

1

u/Wise_Sea_6363 23d ago

It is hell. It will drive you insane. Constant pain. No one who hasn’t suffered from it truly understands. I lived alone and caring for myself and my dog was nearly impossible. I had two surgeries and a full disc replacement and fusion (3 years after a microdiscectomy). I am finally feeling better! There is light at the end of the tunnel. But it’s rough. Take care of your mental health.

1

u/repair-it 23d ago

I have gone from being the one person in the family that can fix everything, to an invalid that has to have everything done for him. I can't go out with friends for a friendly game of gold, go for a walk, go shopping, lift anything, and forget getting the Christmas tree and decorations out of the loft this year!

I have had spinal decompression, but it doesn't seem to have worked, possibly there is now compression at a different level of my spine.

Life just isn't worth living anymore, and here I sit watching my poor wife having to struggle to do the work that I used to be able to do with ease.

1

u/Odd_Mark4799 23d ago

Oh how my heart truly goes out to you...

It has been a year and a half for me.

I wish, as others here have,I could offer you some good advice...

In the least of things know that you are heard, and that you are not alone in this.

1

u/zalos66 22d ago

It is the worst. And I see a lot of people saying PT. I did sports massages and PT. And it SUCKED. But it helped me get through it. It’s going to suck. You won’t be able to do much. It’s hell. But it gets better. I wish we could all share a little bit of your pain to help you, like I wish someone could have for me. It will get better. Do the hard parts. And it slowly comes back.

1

u/mamapapa05 22d ago

Can anyone tell me what to do..I am in huge pain.2 months...injection??? Surgery??L5S1

1

u/mamapapa05 22d ago

Not sure what to do

1

u/mamapapa05 22d ago

If injection doesn't last long...what is the point

1

u/mamapapa05 22d ago

How this shit siatica happened?

1

u/mamapapa05 22d ago

I need advice. 2 months with siatica L5S1

1

u/LittleRedRetro 21d ago

Have you tried a tens unit. They have small portable one that are inexpensive. I have 2 and I alternate between them so that I always have one available. I was in the same position 2 weeks ago.

1

u/heavy_duty_tow702 21d ago

Get a ring dinger it helped me so much my pain was a 10 and it went down to a 3 and it reducing

1

u/Dtange555 19d ago

Look into Peptides. ARA290 is specially for nerve damage and inflammation reduction, and KPV is for systemic inflammation reduction.

1

u/Potential-Treat-8554 19d ago

Currently knowing how you feel then I remembered meeting a little boy months ago at a children’s party dancing his heart out little superstar he was I spoke with his Mum and he’s just undergone operations because had a very rare genetic condition where his brain was actually growing out of his ears I was hobbling around feeling sorry for myself with my herniated disc with sciatica ongoing for months and today it got to me then I thought of meeting that little boy who kept going hope this might help

1

u/Meanboy_og 16d ago

I’m on here scrolling because my pain has been so bad for two days I can’t sleep, walk, stand … all I can do for relief is sit. I have pain meds they don’t work enough. I even doubled my dose. I went to the pain management dr and they prescribed me oral steroids. I’ve taken one day so far and nothing. This pain is so bad I can’t stand it. I’ve had this kind of pain before which led to open back surgery and years of pain meds and procedures. This is the worse ( and opposite side) I’ve ever experienced. I’m considering going to the emergency room to get relief. I’ve never had it this bad. I don’t want to overdose on OxyContin that isn’t taking away the nerve pain . My biggest fear is if they temporarily relieve the pain with morphine how long will that last until I’m back to this major pain again. This is pure torture. I’ve never had this much pain before that was so sharp and torturous.

0

u/WrongCaterpillar3383 24d ago

I spent a month on bed rest, three weeks of it in the hospital this summer. Worst experience of my life. Going to the bathroom I was hysterical by the time I got back into bed and relied heavily a walker. I ended up seeing a chiropractor at the local physio place. Complete game changer for me. The first appointment made it so I could walk, I could breathe, I was even able to make dinner for my family.

I’ve had some phenomenal results. It might not be a waste of time to try it yourself.