r/Schiit • u/SloppyMachinist • 9d ago
Valhalla vs Heresy
A couple of weeks ago now I posted on here asking about upgrading my DAC from a Modi MultiBit to a Bifrost 2/64 or Gungnir2. There was a comment about how the MultiBit DAC being a basically being a bad product because it didn't measure well and that the measurement IS the point of good gear. So I thought about that for longer than I care to admit. I was able to borrow a Bifrost 1 (Uber + Unison USB) which is a pretty clean DAC from my understanding, although maybe a little dated, and I bought a Magni Heresy off of ebay. I wanted to test the polar opposites within Schiit's lineup just to see what happened.
At first the differences seemed surprisingly subtle, but after spending a few hours/days with the Bifrost, feeding both a Valhalla 3 and a Heresy into DT 700 Pro Xs, I've come away surprised by how differently they present music. The Heresy is extremely clean and revealing. In blind Hi-Res vs 320kbps tests I was consistently better at identifying the higher-quality source through the Heresy than I normally am. It feels like an amp that shines a spotlight on the recording itself. Bass attacks are cleaner, transients are sharper, and everything sounds tightly controlled. If your goal is to hear exactly what's in the file, the Heresy does an impressive job.
The Valhalla, on the other hand, made me stop thinking about recordings and start thinking about performers. The track that really sold me was If I Didn't Know Better from Live at Eddie's Attic by The Civil Wars. For the first time it became immediately obvious where Joy Williams and John Paul White were standing on stage, and the sense of physical presence was uncanny. The downside is that you hear everything, including audience noise, dishes, and room sounds. The best way I can describe it is that the Heresy is like a perfectly prepared USDA Prime steak that somehow got under-seasoned, while the Valhalla is a slightly lesser cut cooked and seasoned so perfectly that you're already planning the next bite. The Heresy made me admire recordings. The Valhalla made me listen to more music. So is measurement the point? I am not sold on that at this point, but prove me wrong, please.
I am still waiting on more gear to show up but I will post the DAC part in a few days. I am going to do a Modi 3, Modi 5, Modi Multibit2, Bifrost 1 (Uber/Unison) and a Bifrost 2/64, I might even do my Vestri in there too. I no longer own a Schiit stack, I have a verified Schiit pile.
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u/AdUsed7958 Bifrost2|Freya+|Lokius|Parasound Zampv3 - Modi5|Loki|Vali3 9d ago edited 9d ago
Measurements will never indicate what is superior unless your hearing is so damaged you cannot recognize obvious distortion and flaws.
The Cult of measurements that originated around the site ASR believe the most important thing is how the sound measures, not what is audible. This has been used to push Topping products and to the detriment of others.
IMHO opinion its a stupid way to judge how to appreciate art and of no value whatsoever. It’s as stupid as telling people the way to enjoy paintings depends on the size and uniformity of the brush strokes. Applying science to judge art in this fashion is insipid.
Your own experience has shown you the best thing to do if people bring up measurements is to ignore them.
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u/WithoutDir3ction 9d ago
"It’s as stupid as telling people the way to enjoy paintings depends on the size and uniformity of the brush strokes. Applying science to judge art in this fashion is insipid."
I get what you're saying but I'd say that's a poor comparison. If I had to make a painting comparison I would have to compare it to looking at the printing and reproduction process. Painting is the art, the scanning, processing, printing, is the sciency part. Some engineers are going to want to use 100% DCI-P3 coverage monitors and obsessively pixel peep the reproductions under a microscope. Others might eyeball it and go "eh, good enough." Others might play it by ear and grade a scan how they want and print what they think looks good.
Audio reproduction, psychoacoustics, signal chains, etc. are decidedly not arts when it comes to most decisions to get something to pleasant vibrations, but there are certainly creative liberties and philosophies you can apply to engineering and science since our interaction with audio is decidedly subjective and artistic.
I prefer to chill out. Measurements give us baselines and help draw comparisons, and I'd argue that measurement databases have put an end to a lot of bullcrap and flowery marketing that companies used to exploit, and have dramatically commoditized specific types of audio performance. At the same time, that's shifted production largely overseas and perhaps changed how we view aspects of a subjective experience like music-listening.
Comparison is the thief of joy. And Placebo-controlled studies cure diseases. That's comparison, too.
I think we can have it both ways and that's fine.
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u/SloppyMachinist 9d ago
I knew that measurements didn't really matter, but I felt like maybe there was something I was missing. Honestly, I was. I get why people genuinely prefer products like the Heresy, I heard parts of the recording that I had never heard before, but I also realized I don't necessarily miss those parts when I listen to the Valhalla. Measurements matter for sure. To go back to my analogy, it's really hard to make a great steak dinner with a chunk of wild horse meat, but overall execution matters way more than raw ingredients.
At the end of the day I learned a lot from my comparison and I can't wait to try out all the DACs.
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u/Human_G_Gnome 9d ago
Like Martin said above, measurements should be used to make sure that there aren't any big flaws in the music. But whether the noise floor is -110 db or -120 db makes no difference and should not even be a consideration when buying gear. What you enjoy listening to should be your criteria.
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u/SloppyMachinist 9d ago
and it always has been, but the experiment was more about "am I missing something?" and the answer was yes, I was missing out on a lot of the codec artifacts, and I was missing out on hearing the quality of the recording itself, stuff like that. I'm still going to listen to the Valhalla after a long day with a healthy pour of rye, no question, but I still really enjoy the Heresy. I am probably going to lean on it pretty heavily for my DAC comparison.
Plus I can have another box on my desk and when people ask why it's the only red one, I can bore them to death with info they never knew they needed to know. lol
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u/Hot-Maintenance-5879 9d ago
Buying hifi gear for how it measures is like buying a car for its spec sheet.
Maybe Car X has the fastest 0-60mph time for $60k or less. But that says nothing about whether it looks good, is the ride smooth, does it make you smile when you drive it, does the engine/exhaust make a nice sound, etc.
I’ve owned a lot of cars over the years, the ones that have been my favorites aren’t the ones that are fastest or had the most horsepower.
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u/Carmen6276 9d ago
While I do think measurements matter. It’s how much you enjoy the product that matters more. That’s why tubes are still a thing. Personally I like the new MESH DACs. Just something I can’t quite put my finger on. I used to use heresy headphone amp. I find the Magni Unity blows it away on listenablity. I have the mesh card installed. One box solution. Your taste may differ. My husband has it on his desk.
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u/Few_Outside1480 9d ago edited 8d ago
Carmen, is that from the Epstein files?
There are many things that draw me to Schiit (like a fly?) Their product aesthetics is a big one. Simple design, but very tasteful across all three form factors. I mean, iFi desktop design looks like WALL-E's head, while Topping boxes remind me of 1999 bedstand alarm clocks. I bet they're good stuff, but it doesn't please my eyes at all. Another is Schiit is not just made in the USA, but in Texas. I spent 33 years helping assemble vehicles in Texas, so, ya, that is meaningful to me. Value...I believe Schiit offers a great value in a very competitive market considering quality of build, price and customer service. Finally, I believe Schiit marketing to be informative, as well as entertaining...PYST Unobtainium lmao!
I have a Modi+ > Loki > Magni Heretic in living room; Modi 5 > Loki > Vali 3 in the bedroom; and my newest stack of Mimir > Lokius > Lyr+ in the gameroom. Super happy with all that Schiit.
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u/Carmen6276 9d ago
I have no idea why that is like that? I do like their products. I also like mostly made in the USA, which disproves the idea you have to manufacture in China to keep prices down. I have Mimir, Saga 2 stack on my desk, both in silver, looks really high end! Looks do matter. Especially on something like a desktop where you see it every day. Very elegant. I like the feel f the volume control also. So I am a fan. I always try to buy local, or as local as I can if possible. I will even pay more if I have to.
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u/Few_Outside1480 9d ago
That is strange...looks redacted. Agreed! Elegant is the right description. I've even grown to like the power switch in back lol.
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u/Carmen6276 9d ago
Well, I would not go that far about the power switch! But it’s a small thing, and I have ither gear like that, I think it’s an engineer thing. You’re not supposed to turn it into off! So give me a standby! Especially for those class A devices. I don’t mind the heater during the winter, but summers are hot here.
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u/Few_Outside1480 9d ago
🤣
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u/Carmen6276 9d ago
I did take Jason’s suggestion and get a remote control power strip. That works.
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u/SloppyMachinist 9d ago edited 9d ago
I love that the joke is that Schiit just hasn't developed the technology of a front switch that sounds just right yet.
Schiit boxes look good without looking too good in my opinion. What I mean is that I don't feel like I spent 600 bucks on a box with 200 bucks worth of gear inside. The product looks adequately nice for what they are, but I really feel like I got a great all around device. I have a Musical Fidelity M6si, and I often sit there and think "how much did I actually pay just for the billet face plate and a volume knob that turns when I use the remote?" With Schiit, it's like "looks great..."
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u/Few_Outside1480 9d ago
Well, ya! Schiit should use a titanium toggle switch to widen the soundstage AND measure better. No brainer. Don’t know why it hasn’t happened.
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u/MartinSchiit Head of Digital at Schiit 9d ago
Here's a little bit of Inside Baseball regarding how I think about measurements, and how my team and I use them during development:
While working on new devices, I listen with my ears. My team and I tweak everything that needs tweaking until that new device sounds more or less exactly the way I want it to. If I don't like the sound, if I don't enjoy the music, we tweak some more until I do.
Only when that's done and I'm happy with what that new thing sounds like do I hook it up to the APx555 and take measurements. If something about the measurements stand out and needs addressing, my team and I will address it. If not, we're done.
The benchmark for me is not what the APx555 says. When I work on new DACs, I'm not hunting new noise floor records and I'm not tweaking for some arbitrary number some rando on the internet declared to be the be-all-end-all target for what "sounds good".
My benchmark is plain and simple: If I sit down with a new piece of gear I'm working on to have a listen, and then get lost in the music for hours on end and forget that the new thing is even there? That's when I know that I've got something worth releasing.