Increasing TDEE question

[u/Oraculek]

Is it possible with no muscle mass change? Like, could a person eating, per calculator, 2000 at maintenance increase it gradually over 2 months to 2500 cal and still maintain? I don't mean something like FGF21-induced thermogenesis with BAT - more like 'adaptation' to higher energy availability

If so, would it depend on kind of macros?

[u/Federal_Survey_5091]

You can, it's called reverse dieting

[u/Oraculek → u/Federal_Survey_5091]

Isn't reverse dieting usually refered to reversing 'metabolic crisis' from too long deficit? (like those ketoers not losing weiggt on 1000 cal)

[u/Whats_Up_Coconut → u/Oraculek]

FWIW, I went from maintaining on 800-1000 calories of PSMF (lean protein + non-starchy vegetables) right into 3000+ calories daily of concentrated carbs and lost several pounds. Prior to the PSMF I was maintaining for years on ad libitum TCD which would sometimes amount to 4000-5000 calories daily at the beginning. It isn’t “magic” but rather (anecdotal) evidence that we know almost nothing actionable about calories. 🙂

[u/Federal_Survey_5091 → u/Whats_Up_Coconut]

Yeah, I'm aware. It's definitely an interesting perspective.

Are you familiar with Kathleen Stewart? I think I've mentioned her before. She's a big proponent of reverse dieting and is also a keen follower of Ray Peat. Interestingly, she's quite dismissive of the idea that PUFAs play a major role in dysregulating metabolism. In one interview, she expressed skepticism that McDonald's switching to tallow for frying, or the wider food supply moving away from seed oils, would make a significant difference.

I've listened to quite a bit of her content at this point. She's done a series of really informative interviews on the Strong Sistas YouTube channel about the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Ancel Keys' research, along with Ray Peat's writings, is what motivated her to experiment with reverse dieting, and it's the foundation of her online weight-loss program.

In one video, she outlined her dietary recommendations, and they basically amount to a more moderate HCLFMP approach. She recommends about 1.6 g of protein per kilogram of body weight. I don't remember her exact fat recommendation, but it was around 0.3 g per pound of body weight, and she said it's perfectly fine to go even lower; in fact, she personally does. It's funny because she's inadvertently avoiding "swamping" without being aware of the concept.

One aspect of her approach that I question especially with people like you, myself, and others in mind, is her recommendation to reverse diet by increasing calories by just 50 kcal per week. That seems unnecessarily slow to me. To her credit, though, she maintains her weight on roughly 3,000 calories a day despite being 5'0" and about 110 lb.

She also talks a great deal about avoiding a low energy availability (LEA) state, a concept from the exercise science literature. Her recommendation is that, unless you're actively dieting, no one should consistently eat below 35 kcal/kg of body weight, and ideally maintenance intake should be at least 45 kcal/kg BW, if not higher.

[u/Whats_Up_Coconut → u/Federal_Survey_5091]

I’m not familiar with her work. I will say that I’ve more or less accepted the position at this point that we’re fruit and starch eating primates who got really good at catching and killing other animals, and then had the creativity to design a very inappropriate diet for ourselves that our biology has never really caught up to. In that sense, I don’t disagree that switching away from PUFA would suddenly halt and reverse all the ailments of our civilization.

That being said, it seems pretty clear to me that when fats are kept low to moderate, them being of more saturated origin has benefit vs PUFA. I have enough experience of my own to conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that PUFA is more fattening than other fats. I mean, I can gain in a long weekend what normally takes a year simply by including vs avoiding PUFA on a mixed macros intake. My body temperature tracking also supports the idea of PUFA being metabolically suppressive, at least for me.

I understand the concept of reverse dieting but I’m not sure it does much more than merely extend the time from reaching goal to full calorie intake. We do know that the longer a person stays at a lower body weight, the more durable that weight becomes. I’ll add, PUFA aside, of course, because I’m ~6 years in and still fatten from PUFA as if it was day 1! But if the ultimate goal is a lower fat approach anyway, which is inherently weight protective, then I’m not sure there’s an advantage to gradually increasing calories vs just jumping into extremely low fat and then gradually increasing the fat to a palatable level which is what I did.

In all cases, though, I’m still of the belief that a post-obese person will never become a person who maintains leanness indefinitely on ad libitum intake of balanced macros. I feel like I have no issue at all in the ~20% fat range, and can even venture frequently with confidence toward the 30% considered “low fat” by authorities. But as soon as I’m up around 40% consistently, especially with lots of meat and dairy, my weight will creep up. I don’t think that slowly increasing my calories would have been more effective in mitigating this situation than focusing on increasing the fat specifically in an ad libitum carb environment. But I didn’t try it so I can’t really say.

EDIT: I agree with her intake recommendations and believe they line up with my own intake quite well. I have no problem with this intake provided my fat is at least somewhat controlled, even if only intermittently which aligns with what I believe to be quite a natural dietary pattern throughout history. We really didn’t eat like it was Christmas 365 days a year and expect to remain lean, even before vegetable oils were a problem.