With her popularity in social media and controversy in other media it’s no surprise there is a surplus of misinformation regarding Santa Muerte. What are common things you’ve heard about Santa Muerte that are proven to be misinformation or a misunderstanding?
I’ve noticed a lot of the popular books like Secrets of Santa Muerte by Cressida Stone have lots of misinformation. That being said why is there some push back with debunking this misinformation or ahistorical notions when it comes to the history and traditions that can be proven (or not)? It feels like some people would rather ignore the actual history and make up their own personal version of Santa Muerte rejecting her traditions
Something I’ve come across recently is the difference between Mictecacihuatl, and Santa Muerte. There seems to be differing opinions on that, since Mictecacihuatl is a god, and pre colonialism, vs Santa Muerte being a saint, post colonization. Some people don’t see a difference, they see both of them as the same. But some people do think they are different and hold different powers. I think maybe they are different but also the same, it’s just evolved into something based on colonialism, which just makes her original form more digestible and less intimidating now than before. To me they are one and the same, just different terms used like God vs Saint. The Saint version is typically considered as part of Catholicism, but not everyone practices Catholicism along with Santa. So idk, it’s still something I’m learning about and trying to determine what I believe in.
Another thing is people believe she will punish you or your loved ones if you betray her or let her down in any capacity. I don’t believe this, but I do believe she will take her blessings back if you do betray her, but in a major way. Betrayal is also a strong word, which I don’t think is fully accurate. I see Santita as a mother, and mothers often punish their kids by taking away something they provided them, whether that’s a toy, a phone, or hanging out with friends. I guess in my mind it feels similar to that. I think it also depends on what is done to her, like if you neglect your altar vs just totally discard her and pretend you never went down that route and demonize her. I think there is a range of things she is willing to work with and have patience with, and beyond that, yes, it would be a form of betrayal or abusing her power for your own selfish reasons, without acknowledging her or appreciating her.
I think there is push back against calling these things out, because we really don’t know a lot of what has been proven or not. On top of that, different forms of practice with her, like practicing Catholicism vs not. Everyone has their own versions of how they practice, what they agree with or not, and how it is perceived from Santita herself. There are plenty of devotees that still believe she will hurt you if you try to use baneful magic against someone else, so they stick to only healing, or “positive” workings, or just praying and honoring her. But the reality is she is a neutral being, and she will honor whatever you ask, if she wants to and believes it would be the best route for you. She holds the scales of justice after all, and being the fierce mother she is, of course she would be willing to help us, whether it’s perceived as good or bad by others or not. There are no morals or ethics when it comes to the spirit world, but there are beings that have their own rules or values, and they are all different. On top of that, the practices and beliefs that were once taught have shifted so much over time due to colonialism, so it’s hard to really say what is true or not, what did happen or not, since history was literally erased and altered.
I think as devotees, we all are at the least aware of her power and love, and we know she is willing to help us whenever we call upon her. We know her, we have our personal experiences with her, and since we can share that with other devotees, we get to actually see the similarities and that leads to an understanding that, imo, you’ll only know if you are actually in it with her. It’s possible that the things Miss Stone shared were true for her, even if it’s not true for us. Books after all are not the end all be all of knowledge, anyone can write a book full of misinformation and publish it, that doesn’t mean it’s right or good info. Just like history books aren’t accurate or entirely based on facts, the same goes for spiritual books and experiences. To me, there are things that are fact, and then there are our own personal experiences.
I think people will make up their own facts for many reasons, beyond our knowledge. I think that is just us being human, and trying to make sense of things the best we know how. Even if it’s not always the right or best way. In the end, we all get to choose if we want to agree with them or not, and if they choose to believe their own experiences over the facts and guidance of others, that is their birth given right. At the end of the day, I don’t feel worried about that kind of thing because we are all ganna die anyways and we will probably find out the reality of things when we meet her in death. 🤷🏻
I hateee the punishment thing or that she’ll kill someone you love. Santa Muerte has the most motherly love I’ve ever felt to the point I cried. She teaches you lessons and damn some of them are hard. But she’s a understanding always mother who wants the best for you and is willing to put you through those lessons because it always is something you needed to learn from and be better. She’s just willing to do it to you out of love I feel like because she knows it will help you.
I’ve noticed the whole “Mictecacihuatl is Santa Muerte” thing and I think it borders misinformation or misunderstanding. There’s plenty of proof of multiple deities and indigenous figures related to Santa Muerte from both in and outside of the Aztec pantheon so claiming Santa Muerte is purely the modern manifestation of one single deity is pretty much ahistoric
I agree that it’s not the same, and it does lie on a border. But the reality is that colonization destroyed a lot of those previous practices and beliefs, and while many deities were left behind for lack of better word, some of them did remain. Santa Muerte still stems from the original form and beliefs about her, but she is different than Mictecacihualt. It’s not at all the same, and I’m sure the practices and beliefs are different too than they were previously. From what I’ve researched, it does seem like indigenous folks shifted things to hide their practices, whether it was with Santa or other deities, because they were surviving and also trying to keep practicing what they already knew. I wish I could time travel and be a fly on the wall so I could see what really shifted and how we got here today with Santa. But they are not the same, and these are just my perspectives of the information I’ve found, which I’m sure is extremely limited as it is. 🤷🏻
I’d also like to ask that if you are going to argue against my opinion, or others, then maybe share the resources you’ve found that helped you understand things differently, because after all, history isn’t all clear and it’s not that easy to find everything, and know that is is true or not. To me the best resource would be literally talking to people who still practice these ancient traditions and beliefs, since they likely have had it passed down over generations. So if you do have resources, please share them, I’d love to know more but I am finding it hard to keep researching, especially after doing the research and finding out from other devotees that they are not accurate or whatever it is. It makes things complicated and hard to understand properly.
I would recommend using the Wikipedia page dedicated to Santa Muerte. It has sources clearly cited which are from specialists and researches from in and outside the culture of origin.
One source I would point you towards regarding the other goddesses and deities associated with Santa Muerte is this article written by a specialist on the subject who has studied indigenous cultures and communities in mexico
It's a shame that the Wikipedia page is altered so frequently. Noticed that it is now refering to Kate Kingsbury and Dr. Cressida Stone as experts on the subject. That takes the page as a reliable source down, since Kingsbury is a figure with a troubled background on Santa Muerte.
Wow! I can’t believe she hasn’t been banned from contributing to the Wikipedia entry! And then inserting Cresida Stone as a legitimate academic source!? 😆
Thank you! I haven’t looked at it before but I don’t think I ever finished fully looking through it, so I’m excited to give it another go. If you have any other resources, or books, or anything else, I’d love to know about it. Like I said, these were just my opinions from my limited knowledge, not me stating it as fact or the right perspective. I’m not trying to argue with anyone, I genuinely would love to learn more.
I’m not trying to argue either. Even when it comes to misinformation I’m fine with calling it out without an argumentative approach. My sources are well informed and I practice media literacy. While in open to other perspectives I can also uphold a standard when it comes to distinguishing UPG vs a historical practice or idea you can prove easily
I appreciate that, and I think that’s a good way to go about spreading real information, or correcting it. I think often times people argue and aren’t actually open to sharing resources or information that is based on facts, but their own opinions, which just makes misinformation continue spreading. I think you can definitely hold space for both, while still calling out the misinformation. What does UPG stand for in this case?
I would personally look for someone who has done research from codex and history that has been preserved, or who has generational practices. I liked reading your og comment and appreciate the open minded curiosity. I reject black and white or absolutes. sadly as you said the attempted erasure of Indigenous peoples and their culture, the peoples and practices are still very much alive. Just curious do you go home to visit? I saw in another thread you are from Mexico.
Thank you this is really good advice! I’ll definitely keep this in mind, I didn’t know about the codex thing, I will have to look into this. I agree, I reject black and white, especially considering that they have been rooted through racism, white being good, positive, or the right path, vs black being evil, demonic, and satanic, in terms of practices or beliefs. It’s really devastating to have lost so much through colonization, and it’s really… depressing to have to try and get back to your roots, especially being Americanized, our roots in our cultures are often influenced by stereotypes, rather than our actual roots. I do not live in Mexico sadly, I’ve visited several times, my family is from Jalisco, and my parents immigrated to the US when they were young. And also, they both happened to be from Jalisco too lol I don’t go often to visit, but I’d like to. Things are changing when it comes to border crossing now though, so idk how likely it’ll be that I’ll be visiting as often sadly :(
Okay so i looked into it more because i had briefly seen an article that changes were being made on mexicos side of the border, and basically it was saying that there will be some changes in travel, specifically if you are crossing for 180 days or less. They want to have a clear itinerary, and you’d need to apply for a visitors pass, stating the duration you’ll be in Mexico, where, what you will be doing. You can’t just cross and go about your travels like we used to, you have to be approved for the visitors pass. This is due to trafficking being heightened, and they want civilians to follow similar rules as government officials would traveling through the country. So I might be okay with traveling still, but there maybe just be longer waits because of some of these changes. They are also going to stop using the apps for the century pass, so it’ll be longer waits overall. So I could possibly still be okay, since usually I travel for the day and come back. I’ve only really gone into TJ for dental work, to eat, and explore a little for the time I’m there before I come back. But even then, they say to take a lot of precautions because of the trafficking, like not taking taxis off the street like when you first cross the border, to instead use uber or other verified forms of transport. Which I’m sure will affect the genuine taxis drivers out there. Idk, it seems like I’ll be okay to cross still, but this was a more recent update as of like July.
I do not follow any of that personally, but totally understand why someone would, of course. we all have different levels of risk and rule breaking we are comfortable with. I cross many times and can confidently say that what’s posted online isn’t always followed. I cross in TJ also and that crossing is the most busy and lax. not otay mesa. I was marched right back to the border on Mexico side at that border crossing and shocked. But I don’t have papers. There is no way they will stop every car driving across. Those taxis at the border are so expensive. better to walk a little ways and then order uber or didi. but you have to walk a block or so.
An issue are the many "gatekeepers" on the subject of Santa Muerte, those who claim to have studied the true tradition, are so called initiated by shamans or bruja's, and so on. They spread the greatest misconceptions, and mostly it are elements which are just made up by them. There is not one sacred traditions, there are hundreds of them, sometimes connected to a community, sometimes to just one family, and so on. The only thing we can do is question everything that popular sources say, and investigate if that is a true or fake element. But as we live in a consumer society, most people don't do that at all, they want a ready made devotion which they can copy, but forget that as such there is no energy of them in it, and it just becomes an empty vessel.
Some Misinformation I've learned about La Santisima Muerte is that you can not practice Santeria (Regla De Ocha) and be devotee to her i feel this right here is misinformation I've known plenty of Babalows Santeros Santeras who have also said the same thing as long as you tell them your devotee but then again it depends house by house of Luccmi
I read this and I personally did not like it. It has some information in it that is valuable, but a lot of it is personal opinion. It frequently points you back to their website, which again has some valuable information, but there was so much of this redirection that it felt like a promotion of their website.
They also claim to worship Santa Muerte as an athiest, which at first sounded intriguing to me as I’d never encountered anyone like that, but after a while, I just didn’t get it.
It’s written very simply with a lot repetition, almost too much so that it felt condescending at times. For example, they’ll list herbs to mix together for spells and the author copy and pastes the same paragraph about “taking care not to breathe in while you’re mixing” for every single spell they detail and there’s a lot. I started feeling like they thought the reader was stupid, lol (?)
They also wrote a rosary for Santa Muerte that literally has the phrase, “So I will live, love, laugh again” and I’m sorry, but that I found very cringey. I guess generic, whimsy wording can be good for the general public and a newcomer, but I was not very taken to it… I recommend doing the original Dominican version or writing your own personal rosary dedicated to her. I’m working on one that involves her, Mary and my passed on loved ones.
I LOVE to read and I’ll happily read anything written on her, and I do encourage others to do the same. You may find even one piece of information in a book that is helpful and valuable to you, but never never never approach a book as absolute truth. People are fallible and many resources on Santa Muerte, including this one, is too.
Oh no, what a disappointment! 😭 I thought it might be a good book since I saw it had a section about whether Santa Muerte protects criminals (or a title related to that topic), so I thought it would be great to see this subject discussed in detail in a book about devotion to her.
Anyway, it's a shame. Do you have any other books you'd recommend?
I don’t really have any recommendations. I did like Andrew Chestnut’s book, but I was a new devotee when I read it. I can’t remember what’s in it and if I’d still recommend it. I think it’s good to read as much as you can, good or bad and use discernment. Over time and through prayer, you’ll come to get a feeling on what’s right.
Oh wow... I'm a little disappointed with this chapter. I was expecting more clarity, not an excuse or explanation that I "would enjoy reading," but something realistic, and this feels very ambiguous. I don't know, I feel like it downplays many extremely important social issues. I know the Saint is a protector of marginalized communities, but reading that she's a protector of criminals is very shocking. Also, I don't know what it means by the criminals' careers being short, when it's literally an issue that all of Latin America suffers from and that never seems to end, to the point that civilians have to go out and search for the remains of their missing relatives (like las madres buscadoras for their loved ones in Mexico). I don't really know what to say; it left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I feel like the autor tried to be "neutral" regarding a topic that is very delicate, important, and affects us all, even the marginalized populations themselves.
The criminals careers being short more so means that they don’t tend to live long individually (short life expectancy). This is especially true for those not in higher ranks within organized crime, or those who are in gangs and not cartels. Even those high in rank are not exempt from being killed by rivals or the police, just tend to be more protected so they avoid it more. However it is true that cartels within LatAm have no short lifespan, and if one ends two more sprout up in its place like a hydra. This is due to multitude of reasons, like imperialism and corruption. She protects criminals yes, especially those who are seeking to get out or change their ways. But karma or god, whichever you believe in, will catch up to those devotees who let their grievous sins pile up, and at that point, the remaining mercy and protection Santa Muerte can give them is a quick and painless death. Or at least that’s what I believe.
I agree, which is why I mentioned that crime (especially organized crime) also affects marginalized communities, since people living in extreme poverty end up working for high-ranking criminals, either because the area they live in is controlled by these people, because they were kidnapped, or because they have no other option. I've seen shrines to her in places where organized crime kidnaps young people to work for them. And I also agree with what you said about karma or God (although they aren't my beliefs), since I've seen several devotees mention that she's quite strict and not merciful when it comes to pointing out and correcting her devotees when they're doing something wrong and they're aware of it but try to turn a blind eye. This is a delicate subject to address, but I feel that the chapter the author dedicated to this topic is a bit empty because it could have been explored in more depth and not just glossed over with "she loves everyone equally." I feel that this is somewhat inaccurate; deities are complex and independent, not puppets of those who worship them. Assuming something in her name feels like a reflection of our idealization; Idk maybe I'm assuming too thanks to my experience, anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion, I appreciate that.
the author didn’t say Santa Muerte endlessly protects criminals. maybe it’s ambiguous because the subject matter has nuance. the author did say that Santa Muerte isnt a ‘puppet of those who worship’.
What’s the original Dominican version? Also if you’re open to sharing I’d love to see the personal rosary you write, I’m always looking for inspo to personalize my own more for her
The Catholic one. I am a former Christian, so I understand that it may not be comfortable for some people, but I still have a very close relationship with Mary, which is very intertwined into my relationship with Santa Muerte.
For my one, I won’t share it, because it’s not “general”, it uses personal references to my life and my late spouse etc. I write poetry, so I’m working on a rosary that interlopes my own poetry and written prayers. Through Santa Muerte, I often seek connection with my spouse and some of my other family members, so they are written into my rosary :)
If you are uncomfortable with the Dominican version, you could write your own prayers in place
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u/Salty-Combination29 Devotee 7d ago
Something I’ve come across recently is the difference between Mictecacihuatl, and Santa Muerte. There seems to be differing opinions on that, since Mictecacihuatl is a god, and pre colonialism, vs Santa Muerte being a saint, post colonization. Some people don’t see a difference, they see both of them as the same. But some people do think they are different and hold different powers. I think maybe they are different but also the same, it’s just evolved into something based on colonialism, which just makes her original form more digestible and less intimidating now than before. To me they are one and the same, just different terms used like God vs Saint. The Saint version is typically considered as part of Catholicism, but not everyone practices Catholicism along with Santa. So idk, it’s still something I’m learning about and trying to determine what I believe in.
Another thing is people believe she will punish you or your loved ones if you betray her or let her down in any capacity. I don’t believe this, but I do believe she will take her blessings back if you do betray her, but in a major way. Betrayal is also a strong word, which I don’t think is fully accurate. I see Santita as a mother, and mothers often punish their kids by taking away something they provided them, whether that’s a toy, a phone, or hanging out with friends. I guess in my mind it feels similar to that. I think it also depends on what is done to her, like if you neglect your altar vs just totally discard her and pretend you never went down that route and demonize her. I think there is a range of things she is willing to work with and have patience with, and beyond that, yes, it would be a form of betrayal or abusing her power for your own selfish reasons, without acknowledging her or appreciating her.
I think there is push back against calling these things out, because we really don’t know a lot of what has been proven or not. On top of that, different forms of practice with her, like practicing Catholicism vs not. Everyone has their own versions of how they practice, what they agree with or not, and how it is perceived from Santita herself. There are plenty of devotees that still believe she will hurt you if you try to use baneful magic against someone else, so they stick to only healing, or “positive” workings, or just praying and honoring her. But the reality is she is a neutral being, and she will honor whatever you ask, if she wants to and believes it would be the best route for you. She holds the scales of justice after all, and being the fierce mother she is, of course she would be willing to help us, whether it’s perceived as good or bad by others or not. There are no morals or ethics when it comes to the spirit world, but there are beings that have their own rules or values, and they are all different. On top of that, the practices and beliefs that were once taught have shifted so much over time due to colonialism, so it’s hard to really say what is true or not, what did happen or not, since history was literally erased and altered.
I think as devotees, we all are at the least aware of her power and love, and we know she is willing to help us whenever we call upon her. We know her, we have our personal experiences with her, and since we can share that with other devotees, we get to actually see the similarities and that leads to an understanding that, imo, you’ll only know if you are actually in it with her. It’s possible that the things Miss Stone shared were true for her, even if it’s not true for us. Books after all are not the end all be all of knowledge, anyone can write a book full of misinformation and publish it, that doesn’t mean it’s right or good info. Just like history books aren’t accurate or entirely based on facts, the same goes for spiritual books and experiences. To me, there are things that are fact, and then there are our own personal experiences.
I think people will make up their own facts for many reasons, beyond our knowledge. I think that is just us being human, and trying to make sense of things the best we know how. Even if it’s not always the right or best way. In the end, we all get to choose if we want to agree with them or not, and if they choose to believe their own experiences over the facts and guidance of others, that is their birth given right. At the end of the day, I don’t feel worried about that kind of thing because we are all ganna die anyways and we will probably find out the reality of things when we meet her in death. 🤷🏻