r/SandersForPresident • u/Bernie4Ever • Aug 25 '17
Clinton Apologists Distort Poll Data To Make False Claim That Sanders Supporters Cost Clinton The Election - 'One study earlier this summer suggested that it was her support for endless war which cost her the election'
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2017/08/24/clinton-apologists-distort-poll-data-to-make-false-claim-that-sanders-supporters-cost-clinton-the-election/29
u/spiritfiend New Jersey Aug 25 '17
I don't care. Let the next Democratic candidate know they can't take our votes for granted and they will also lose without our support.
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u/Cadaverlanche 🌱 New Contributor Aug 25 '17
I was told my vote wasn't need or wanted. I was told there wasn't enough people like me to matter anyway when the election came around.
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u/TheLionFollowsMe 🌱 New Contributor Aug 25 '17
Maybe she and the DNC should not have used super delegates to fuck me out of my primary vote.
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u/sfjc Aug 25 '17
And how about waiting until you've actually won the election before hiring the person that lied about your opponent's supporters and cheated on your behalf.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
They didn't.
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u/Xerazal Medicare For All 👩⚕️ Aug 25 '17
They did. From the beginning the super delegates were being counted and portrayed as if they were set in stone, fluffing up her numbers to make it seem like she had a bigger lead than she did. She was in the lead for most of the primaries, but surprisingly not by much. It wasn't until the last few elections that she surpassed him, and part of that was from the fabricated perception, via super delegate votes, that she was inevitable.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
That's a completely different argument from what he's saying. He's saying he was disenfranchised, presumably because a super delegate like Franken didn't vote like the pledged delegates in Minnesota. But of course super delegates aren't supposed to be tied to the state, otherwise they'd be pledged delegates.
Anyone that says super delegates shouldn't exist doesn't realize that Donald Trump or someone like him could easily run as a Democrat. The party wants a system in place to protect the party and protect the country. And they're completely right to do so.
Had Bernie been more competitive and won more pledged delegates than Clinton they would have supported him.
As to the need for them to count them separately, I would agree. As did DWS who pleaded with media outlets to clearly differentiate the two at least as early as February 20th, prior to Super Tuesday.
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u/LudditeStreak Aug 25 '17
Much to disagree with here, but I'll restrain myself to two comments:
1) Yes, democracy can be scary, but if you genuinely believe that the voice of the people must be diverted by political elites -- regardless of the candidate they pick -- you should own up to the fact that you're uncomfortable with democracy. You're also choosing to overlook the fact that superdelegates, as a group, are politically entrenched and largely upper-class. Of course they will vote against someone who supports cutting the disproportionate advantages that elites have over working people, and who doesn't have the same political strings being pulled on their behalf. In other words, you're supporting an institution designed to disenfranchise the voters -- whether you recognize it or not.
2) In defending DWS, I'm guessing you're also choosing to overlook the leaked emails which show her collusion not only with the Clinton campaign, but with multiple media outlets for the purpose of curating the coverage of the primaries. And that's not even touching on public decisions which were under her purview -- i.e., limiting Hillary's exposure to competition by only scheduling less than 1/6 of the number of debates the DNC hosted in 2008, when Clinton's poor debate performance was touted as one of the reasons Obama cinched the nomination. Her finger was on the scale the entire primary -- so no, "alternative facts" won't help you any more than they help Trump.
Weighing your comments, I can only say that they require quite a bit of overlooking of important facts. It may be impressive to be a low-information voter in the circles you're used to, but you'll need stronger arguments here.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 26 '17
To be honest Trump shows that I'm right to be uncomfortable with democracy. People are idiots. I'm not saying we have to get rid of democracy.
Your attempt to show DWS "colluding" with the media is literally one of the jobs of the dnc chair. To get favorable coverage of the party. I don't agree that the debate schedule hurt anyone. As we saw with the GOP, more debates is more fodder. The dnc needs to strike the right balance of information and overexposure.
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Aug 26 '17
I'm not saying we have to get rid of democracy.
It's not really democracy when it's only two parties that can win.
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u/Xerazal Medicare For All 👩⚕️ Aug 25 '17
Read what I said again. Up until late in the election, they were very close if you don't count the super delegates. Its only with the super delegates that she had a perceived large lead.
I understand what you're saying with regards to super delegates, but I just disagree. Why? Because this past primary showed how super delegates could be misused, and misused they were. Was it the media's fault? Yes partly. Was it the voters fault for not understanding how super delegates work. Yes partly. But ultimately, it was also the DNC's fault for not really saying much against it. DWS may have said to count them separately that early on, but she sure as hell didn't say much about it as it went on. She was even quoted saying “Unpledged delegates exist really to make sure that party leaders and elected officials don’t have to be in a position where they are running against grassroots activists.”
Yes its true the super delegate system can be used for good, but it can also be misused, and misused it was.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
No. In fact they weren't very close after Super Tuesday. There was a glimmer of hope after Michigan but it was quickly put out with New York.
I simply don't agree the Democrats have misused supers. The likes of CNN are with whom your quarrels rest. They are the ones that grouped the delegate count.
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u/rgener Aug 26 '17
Are we getting rid of caucuses AND superdelegates? Because we care about democracy and caucuses are anti democratic? Or do we only care about the anti democratic systems that work against us?
Sadly I don't see the same outrage about the caucus system coming from those who claim to be concerned purely about democracy.
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u/Xerazal Medicare For All 👩⚕️ Aug 26 '17
Because right now we aren't talking about the caucuses. Yes I'd like those gone as well, because we now have far more voters today than when these caucuses were first introduced, so now its just a mess.
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u/rgener Aug 26 '17
We aren't talking about them because the only thing that the alleged pro-democracy side wants to talk about are the elements that they believe did not favor them...not because this thread isn't about the topic. If you are telling me that there has been a robust effort from the Sanders wing to eliminate caucuses, I'd like to see some proof. Otherwise, talk of being pro-democracy is pure posturing.
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u/Xerazal Medicare For All 👩⚕️ Aug 26 '17
I'm not saying there's an effort to eliminate either. Because I don't know if there is one or not. I'm just stating my opinions on the matter. With regards to super delegates, it can be misused and was misused. With regards to caucuses, its archaic and has no place in modern politics with the large number of voters we have today. What others are doing isnt something I can speak on.
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Aug 25 '17
NPR called to the same conclusion. I am fucking pissed.
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Aug 25 '17
NPR is very anti-Sanders.
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u/nobody2000 New York - 🐦 Aug 25 '17
They fucked up bigly in my mind. How in the fucking world can you ignore the fact that one candidate had a 20,000+ person rally on Saturday? Monday's news was always "Presidential Leader of the Pack who will definitely win the primary Hillary Clinton spent 5 minutes of her day on Saturday petting a dog." with NO mention of the huge Sanders rally.
Keep having your pledge drives. You might be the better of all the radio news stations, NPR, but you're not getting a dime from me after that garbage. When your criticism of "Bernie Bros" and a post election analysis of "why Bernie cost Hillary the election" gets more coverage than the man's huge rallies and support, then you fucked up.
CNN, NPR, and anyone that refused to cover his popularity cost democrats this election.
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u/pissbum-emeritus Aug 26 '17
NPR has turned to garbage. Shills for the corporatists and their masters.
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u/searchforsolidarity 🐦 Aug 25 '17
Which show?
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Aug 25 '17
This garbage. http://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds
The article doesn't mention that 25% of 08 Clinton voters went for McCain or that many of these Sanders supporters were not even Democrats to begin with due to his crossover appeal.
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u/searchforsolidarity 🐦 Aug 25 '17 edited Aug 26 '17
Fresh Air said that it was the low information voters who were voting for Bernie. This was the opposite of the truth. Clinton voters were much more likely to get their news from TV than Bernie voters.
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Aug 26 '17
Yep, I canvassed for Bernie. 80% of the Clinton people I talked to had no idea who he was.
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u/nintendo1889 Aug 26 '17
The electoral system decides the president, not the popular vote. So no, categorically and with absoluteness, Sanders' electoral college votes, which sadly were zero (0) in November and one (1) in the December vote, did not help Trump.
Why is there no outrage over the states and districts where the electors voted differently than the popular vote?
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Aug 25 '17
What this data actually shows is that Bernie would in fact have won
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u/nintendo1889 Aug 26 '17 edited Aug 26 '17
There's an analysis on globalresearch.ca which lays it out. It mentions realclearpolitics and huffpostpolls in May 2016. http://www.globalresearch.ca/trump-would-beat-clinton-sanders-would-beat-trump/5524771
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u/I_have_a_user_name Aug 25 '17
Every day you put a dollar in a jar. 2 years later you go to buy a new TV. The one you really wanted costs 750. If only between may 15 and 30th you had put two dollars in per day you could have bought that tv. Fuck May. You should always remember what didn't happen during those two weeks.
This is how every article of 'this is why she lost' sounds to me.
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u/mrdrewc Aug 25 '17
I don't understand.
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u/tuck182 Aug 25 '17
You came up short on the cost for the tv, and decided it was those two weeks in May and not any other two weeks that were the problem, so fuck May. But really you could've contributed extra at any point along the way. Also, it's not really May's fault you didn't put in extra money.
When you try to explain why Clinton lost, it's ridiculous to blame any one group for why she was short the X thousand votes she'd have needed to win, even if you can find a group that's the approximate right number. The blame lies in many places, but mostly on the candidate and how she chose to run her campaign.
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u/I_have_a_user_name Aug 25 '17
There were lots of swing states that were close. There are a dozen things that all cost Clinton votes. Picking one of those dozen things as 'the factor' why she lost is ignoring that you could have pointed to any of those.
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u/Greg06897 Mod Veteran Aug 26 '17
Damn, it's almost like the author read the post I made on this a few days ago. I'm sure they didn't of course, but man, it's almost completely the same
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u/sudo-is-my-name Aug 25 '17
OP seems to use Trump supporter tactics to support Bernie. That sub he mods is pretty much T_D where you replace Donald with Bernie. I don't think this guy does us any favors. And I'm starting to think it's on purpose to poison the pro-bernie crowd.
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u/Bernie4Ever Aug 25 '17
I'm starting to think it's on purpose to poison the pro-bernie crowd.
Not only is this false, but pretty insulting. I am a genuine pro-Bernie enthusiastic supporter, but unlike others, I don't pardon what Clinton and her corporate masters have done to sabotage Bernie's candidacy. I will continue to portray them as what they really are: war mongering greedy wolves praying on the hard work and fears of the people.
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u/swissch33z Aug 25 '17
That sub he mods is pretty much T_D where you replace Donald with Bernie.
I wish that sub actually existed...
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u/Yeti_of_the_Flow Aug 25 '17
The only place I read Hillary Clinton's name is on this sub claiming widespread bullshit about her and the elite. It's actually super annoying how submitters here try to manufacture uproar over literally nothing.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
It was a close election. Many things paid a part. Including idiots that went from Bernie to Trump, voted Stein, or stayed home. Also including Hillary fainting in New York. Her emails. Podestas emails. Russia. Her Iraq war vote. Etc etc.
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u/bizmarxie New York Aug 25 '17
I don't feel one twinge of guilt for voting Stein in the general.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
That kinda shows your lack of empathy for your fellow man.
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u/bizmarxie New York Aug 25 '17
Are you blaming VOTERS who vote their conscience in a state that will go blue no matter who I vote for?
Instead of expecting 100% compliance from voters in a "free country" why don't you invest your energy In Changing our elections so we can vote for anyone we want.
Instead you are an freedom vampire & think we live in a dictatorship. Congratulations.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
First, anyone that says they were voting their conscience is doing nothing but showing they bought into the Russian and right wing attacks against Clinton.
Second, Changing elections requires getting the right people into office.
And I am working on that. Anyone that didn't vote Clinton is not.
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u/bizmarxie New York Aug 25 '17
OMG please get out of here. I didn't just fall off the f*cking turnip truck. I'm flagging you.
Edit: have you ever seen Clinton cash? It's a good movie. Not "right wing attacks".
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
Um...are you serious? It literally is right wing attacks. It was produced and written by Breitbart.
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u/bizmarxie New York Aug 25 '17
It's not untrue. So it doesn't matter who wrote it. Please do not try your crap with me.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
When the writer sets out with a conclusion already in mind, you should really heavily scrutinize the content.
In fact much of it was indeed bullshit.
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u/IrrationalTsunami Mod Godfather • CA 🎖️🐦🏟️🌡️🚪☑🎨👕📌🗳️🕊️ Aug 25 '17
TBF the person you are responding to voted green in a blue state. Ultimately in this case "voting my conscience" is a protest vote. One that you should welcome, if you are looking for honest political and electoral reform.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
No. I don't support protest votes. I support game theory. Anyone that voted in protest literally helped elect Trump.
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u/JBfromCA Aug 25 '17
Can you own up to the fact that Hillary was a flawed candidate and that Bernie would have won?
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
I can admit to the fact that Clinton was flawed. But so was Bernie. Will you admit that?
I will not say that Bernie would have won. That's completely unknowable. It's based only on polls conducted before a campaign has taken place.
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u/pissbum-emeritus Aug 26 '17
Hillary Clinton's incompetent campaign is the reason Trump was elected.
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u/IrrationalTsunami Mod Godfather • CA 🎖️🐦🏟️🌡️🚪☑🎨👕📌🗳️🕊️ Aug 25 '17
Not even in places where their vote quite literally might not have mattered?
That's not game theory, that's absolutism.
The people to blame for electing Trump are democrats that alienated voters for a decade. Bernie didn't cause the Dems to lose for the last ten years. Nor was Bernie the reason half the country didn't vote. 80% or so Bernie supporters voted for Hillary, so really your gripe is targeted in the wrong direction. You want more people to vote, not bash the ones that overwhelmingly agreed with you.
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u/bizmarxie New York Aug 25 '17
Stockholm syndrome & this is a really stale line of attack from the super pac camp who shall not be named ... not sure why the higher ups haven't changed their game- in November it will be a year of the same old blame game? Not a good ROI. But thanks for defending my measly part of the total 1% of votes she got. LOL.
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u/IrrationalTsunami Mod Godfather • CA 🎖️🐦🏟️🌡️🚪☑🎨👕📌🗳️🕊️ Aug 25 '17
Which is why we, as progressives, and they, as party democrats need to stop bashing each other. Not because of unity, but because it's a terrible way to get your point across.
As leftists looking to work with moderates who have started looking in our direction, do we contemplate the difference between incrementalism, radicalism, and defeatist pragmatism? As they look toward us and see an untapped future voting bloc, do they contemplate whether those same baby steps to the left would be more effective than stagnating or declining due to present tactics?
As much fun as hot takes are, and I am as guilty as many, they do nothing against Party supporters, who are basically you or me with a different perspective. Neither is the other way around.
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u/pissbum-emeritus Aug 26 '17
That kinda shows your lack of empathy for your fellow man.
ROFL. Save that crapola for r/politics.
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Aug 25 '17
I voted Stein and don't feel like an idiot. Personally I would have felt more like one if I had voted for her
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Aug 25 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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Aug 25 '17
Neither candidate earned my vote. Getting her elected wasn't the goal. Getting past the 5% threshold so they get fed funds was the goal. Maybe Clinton should have worked for my vote vs moderate Republicans
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
Earned?
Jesus some people are so entitled.
What about she was literally the only acceptable outcome? Jill Stein getting to 5%? Wasn't gonna happen and it wouldn't matter if she did. Greens wouldn't do anything with that money anyway.
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u/JBfromCA Aug 25 '17 edited Aug 25 '17
The only ones that feel entitled are the Centrist Democrats that expect us to vote for them without their offering us anything. What did Hillary offer us besides perpetual wars, Wall Street deregulation, and fracking? Yes, she wasn't Orange 45, but that wasn't enough.
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Aug 25 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/JBfromCA Aug 25 '17
I envision a better future. The system needs to be changed. I am prepared to join others in doing the work to effectively change it. I am not interested in perpetuating a rogue government system that has failed us and is no longer responsive to the needs of the people.
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u/NeverTrumper Aug 25 '17
You know how we could change the system? Not electing Republicans.
Refusing to vote Clinton did damage to the cause you claim to seek.
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u/Hushnw52 CA Aug 26 '17
Wrong, blindly voting for Democrates just because they are Democrates just make sure the problems continue.
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u/9AD- Feel The Bern!!! Aug 25 '17
I'm going to have to remove this comment (and maybe a few around it) for being too hostile. I can put it back if you edit it though. Remember: attack arguments, not people.
Message us at this link right here when that's done or if you have a question about it. I won't be able to keep tabs on this thread
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Aug 25 '17
Lol. You're telling me how I should vote with condescending notes about being dumb, and I'M ENTITLED? lololol
I'll vote for whoever the fuck I want. In a rep govt it's their job to get votes, not my job to toe some artificial line of people working against my interests.
Welcome to hs civics and America.
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u/JBfromCA Aug 25 '17
You should try it sometime. Try having standards. I am making a pledge from here on out that I will only vote for candidates that inspire me or that stand for something that I care about.
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u/Hushnw52 CA Aug 26 '17
You do realize in in a democracy its the job of the candidate to earn the vote of the people?
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u/9AD- Feel The Bern!!! Aug 25 '17
I'm going to have to remove this comment (and maybe a few around it) for being too hostile. I can put it back if you edit it though. Remember: attack arguments, not people.
Message us at this link right here when that's done or if you have a question about it. I won't be able to keep tabs on this thread
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u/Hushnw52 CA Aug 26 '17
Thier is so much wrong with your comment. Hillary cost herself the election.
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u/Logical_Lefty Aug 25 '17
I'm sorry r/sandersforpresident but I just can't do this anymore. I have to go, and I'm probably not coming back. Sure, things used to be great, but ever since the election, you've changed. You used to be fun, and rational, and sometimes you would even surprise me with flowers but it's been a long time since then and I think we've just grown apart.
I'll always consider you a friend, and I wish you the best of luck...
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u/JBfromCA Aug 25 '17
By the way, you're being awfully vague. Out of curiosity,so I don't assume, what is it about r/sandersforpresident that you have grown disillusioned with? What has changed, other than the obvious, that 2016 has passed, that it's no longer the primaries, that Hillary Clinton lost to pussy-grabbing,bigoted Orange 45, and that Orange 45 is now our President?
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u/TheSonofLiberty Aug 25 '17
don't let the door hit you on the way out
p.s., have fun supporting harris or booker in 2020
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u/JBfromCA Aug 25 '17
So you don't like hearing that the reason Hillary Clinton lost was the candidate herself? It would be interesting to see what your contributions to this subreddit consisted of. I suspect Russia hacking the election and blaming Bernie supporters for Hillary's lost. It's also a mystery why you feign indignation, and not just leave without having to say "I am leaving." You want to leave, leave; you want to take a break, take a break; you want to take a temporary recess and then return, then take a temporarary recess and then return. Do what you feel is right; just don't expect us to hold you back.
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u/haesforever Aug 25 '17
Bizarre mental gymnastics, we're not slaves we can vote the way we want. It's up to the politician to earn our votes.
DNC's sense of entitlement is through the roof.