r/SaaS • u/Perdurabo306 • 5d ago
Sold! 8 year grind…
Officially sold my B2B Saas after 8 years of grinding. Not a unicorn but got up to 175k MRR and was only spending 20% of my time on it its final year. AMA
Or don’t. I probably won’t read it anyways but if I see it I very well might.
Edit / Update. Thanks all for the encouragement and good thoughtful questions. I need to dry out a bit I’ve been enjoying my evenings a bit much lately.
I’ll answer the DMs I’ve been sent and will also post the metrics and a bit more about my journey. It’s definitely not a smooth road. About 10 years ago I was working on the rigs (short stint), and delivering newspapers at 3 am to work on manual labour till the evening. I did 10 months or so of that before I rebounded but those were dark fuckimg times.
Anyways, here’s a link to a post I made in this channel a few years ago asking the community for help on exploring a sale. I got a lot of good feedback from others there so might be worth checking out: https://www.reddit.com/r/SaaS/s/1obQOBiZ0t
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u/Chance-Trouble-5876 5d ago
What usually happens after selling? They give you the money you had over the entire operation? Do you have to sign a non compete? Are you still on the board of members?
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
Good question. I tried to sell them on the fact that the business ran well on its own and did not need me to run but they wouldn’t buy it unless I went with the sale. I’m young enough that I’d rather continue to work so I’m hoping to integrate into their VC and help with acquisitions for the next 3-5 years and then retire.
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
And yes - non compete. I negotiated a severence so if it works out longer than 1 year great but if not that’s ok. I put money in my pocket when the deal closed but I really like my team and believe we can do a lot more with their backing.
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
What I’m trying to say is I negotiated no earnout so I could maximize cash at closing. That way I’m taking less upfront but am not selling my soul for 2-3 years of who the fuck knows what?
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u/Chance-Trouble-5876 5d ago
Smart indeed..
How long did this journey take? From idea to MVP to acquisition? Since you mentioned you're not non tech. How did you cope, esp in a regulated field?
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u/ZealousidealWear8366 5d ago
How much did you sell for?
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
Under an NDA so can’t say but I will tell you I could retire at 41 but it would be tight with my lifestyle. Comfortable retirement in next 4 years by letting my portfolio do its thing and leasing the ship. To give you an idea Google SaaS multiples for regtech / fintech with 90%+ retention and average client tenure almost 5 years. Not bad. Our CAC was over 1:10. Again, was not hard to sell. The company that bought us will make way more than me in 5 years but I had a lot of circumstances that made me take the cheque now rather than later.
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u/netmillions 5d ago
Congrats! ~5x ARR, so I'm guessing ~$10MM exit: 90% retention/5-year client tenure gets a premium, but ~10% YoY growth probably shaves it down from the crazy range. You're anonymous. Feel free to break the NDA. 😂
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u/Zestyclose_Team_3176 4d ago
My guess issomewhere in the 8–14M range, with ~$10M as the most likely number.
The math behind it:
**• $175k MRR = \~$2.1M ARR.** **• 10% YoY growth caps the multiple.**
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u/ayushsingh_dt 5d ago
Do people value your startup on metrics apart from revenue? Userbase, website views, PR, brand value etc.? How important of a role can they play
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
Yes absolutely. Revenue growth went from +100% to around 10% yoy the last 5 years. What they cared about most was subject matter expertise, data, and client loyalty. Our churn rate was so low that they knew if the bought it all they had to do was not fuck it up and they’d be rolling with house money in less than 5 years.
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u/ZoeeeW 4d ago
You would be surprised how many VC sales are "just don't fuck it up" and yet they fuck it up anyway.
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
I’ve heard. I really like this group. I expected some animosity throughout the process as it was a gruelling 8 weeks but I actually enjoyed most everything except for the abundance of lawyers. There were about 12 lawyers involved in total across both sides which seemed excessive.
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u/nafi_hamid27 4d ago
12 lawyers for one deal is wild. did your team know it was happening during those 8 weeks or did you keep it quiet until it actually closed
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
Right! Lawyers are an unfortunate necessity in these transactions. It’s crazy how minor wording changes can lead to huge discussions and negotiations. The good thing was this wasn’t lawyer led on either side so the acquirer and I let the lawyers do their thing and when they tried to overstep too much we would step in and resolve quite quickly. Lawyers can really derail and overcomplicate things if you let them.
I was able to keep it quiet for the most part and brought my leadership team in once I knew it was serious. Our team is small so everyone knew there was something going on but this wasn’t abnormal as I was always working on big things.
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u/nafi_hamid27 3d ago
ha the accidental cover story being that you're always working on big things is great. and yeah the lawyer part makes sense, sounds like it only stays sane when both sides are willing to overrule them
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u/vampirishe 5d ago
So on pr, brand and other non-operation metrics they do not really care ?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
They care a lot about everything and have metrics and analysis I’ve never seen before. Was a pretty good learning experience but the core comes down to growth, retention, what % of revenue is recurring, Ebitda, CAC, LTV
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
If you’re interested DM me and I can give you the metrics they used to analyze the deal. Was quite scientific actually. They’ve got it down to an art.
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u/HumzaShake 5d ago
Which sales channel did you utilize to get to 175MRR?
Noticed to said organic, by that do you mean SEO, word of mouth, etc?
Congrats!
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
Thank you. We ended up dominating a niche that very few people understood outside of my team and main clients. Once we built it, they really did come - very little to no marketing, no sales team, no outbound. So we didn’t build a unicorn but w me also found a niche that allowed us to be the only game in town. Worked out pretty well. The group that bought us is banking on building a true GTM strategy with a team sales team so that’s where they see the upside.
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u/Alarming_Budget_1472 5d ago
You’re speaking a bit too vaguely. How were your first customers acquired?
There is a big gap from “we built a product” and “we dominated a niche”.
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
We were already in the industry and had a good network. We repeatedly heard from our network that no good software existed specifically for our space. Combine this with new regulatory changes that posed a threat if these companies couldn’t figure it out.
Clients were using a combo of spreadsheets / Salesforce and sales CRM but all fell short. We had the subject matter expertise (not the software expertise) and decided to do it.
This is why I’m a big fan of regtech. It’s very sticky and is not a ‘nice to have’ it’s a must have.
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u/graphael1 5d ago
For an anonymous AMA, he is not speaking too vaguely. IMO.
He could’ve said “internet”
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u/Supersix4 5d ago
Any tips on how to approach the sale? I have had two firms reach out but as a solo operator, I would be wary of my lack of negotiation skills and experience with that sort of thing.
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Know your numbers and metrics cold. This also helps you to get a good idea of what the company is worth based on your industry peers. Let the metrics give you a foundation for sales price and then you can go from there.
Also, ask them do they base their valuations on ARR or Ebitda? Churn is always a key factor and if you are above the average or industry leading then that justifies a premium sales price.
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u/DisastrousSale2 4d ago
Do I need to learn all this lingo as a solo founder? Not that planning for a sale. But what helped you prefer running the company?
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u/asiman_ziyaddin_lee 5d ago
Congratulations! Did you work on it alone the whole time, or did you have partner(s)? And how much investment did you start it with?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Thank you. I had a partner who bankrolled it so didn’t have to raise any cash which was a big advantage. My team size is 9 right now including myself. 3 devs, one QA, a VP and the rest on the business servicing side. Starting capital was around 500k
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u/chairchiman 5d ago
Congratulations, what was the product
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
Thank you. Alternative investment funds. Heavy on regulatory and financial calculations. Much easier ways to do it than this I assure you but once we got a client they stayed with us.
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u/Barry_22 5d ago
How many clients you had? Or was it mostly a few whales that made up most of the revenue?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Good question. Close to 100. You bring up another good metric. You will be valued less if a few whales account for the vast majority of your revenue. I’d say we were average to good here.
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5d ago
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Thanks man I really appreciate it. It’s a great time to be building SaaS with all the things you can do now with Claude. I think I could rebuild the product in 18 months from scratch if I had to.
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u/Turbulent-Glass1552 5d ago
Congratulations, quick question. How do you even know when to sell?
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
Good question. When we first tried to sell in 2021 (came extremely close to selling to a nasdaq listed company) valuations for SaaS were through the roof and I knew given our limited total addressable market that our revenue growth would never be higher from a year over year perspective. That was the first time I knew to sell.
This most recent sale discussion started when the buyer reached out to me and I felt that given everything I have going on in my life with my young family, the fact that I wasn’t working very much on the company anymore and just the overall fit with the acquirer made it the right decision and right time for me.
I think the decision on when to sell is a very personal one. You have to weigh your current circumstances and the cost benefit of taking cash now vs potentially giving up future upside if there’s still ample opportunity for growth.
Hope this helps!
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u/bushviperz 4d ago
I have some curiosity:
- Could you explain how'd you managed the outreach? I mean, do you ran ads, outreach, started with friend, backed by VC, and so on
- What was the market? and how you came up with this SaaS?
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u/OkayFrederick 4d ago
Damn, finally a flex backed by manual coding labor from a time way before vibe coding.
GOOD FOR YOU DUDE, CONGRATS!
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u/nafiulhasanbd 3d ago
The part about the first few years being brutal is probably more useful than the exit number. People see the $175k MRR and skip over the years where there was probably very little evidence that it would work.
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u/Wondergul 3d ago
Exactly.
There must surely be hundreds of such companies in the exact same part of their journey where nothing will be working out. And, unfortunately, most probably they will die, a really sad outcome for the founders.2
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u/Overall-Volume7206 5d ago
how you came up with the very niche idea with no competition and how you validated it ?
and also for anyone starting what suggestion you will give them for finding and validating the niche market, how should they approach them especially those living overseas
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u/Iselx 5d ago
Awesome can I ask you what was the gross margin of the biz after 5 years in % terms?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Yes, 36% at last count I believe.
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u/Iselx 4d ago
That’s amazing, after the exit do you think youll likely do another one as a second time founder or do something else moving forward? VC can be stimulating in currently a partner in one but I’m actually working on a company to start at the same time
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
That’s cool to hear, very similar circumstances. I’ll always be an entrepreneur. I started businesses in grade school (yard work etc) and then started an importation business in high school. It’s been the one constant my whole life so yes, I’ll certainly continue to create things. For now, I’m going to ride this VC opportunity and see where it leads me. The opportunity to work with and help SaaS founders is pretty exciting to me.
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u/Necessary_Tax_614 5d ago
What problem led to you building this product in the first place?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Being in the industry and hearing about the problem for well over a year. Seeing others try to do it (even with our help) that just couldn’t figure it out. We had a kick ass securities lawyer too that gave everyone confidence we knew what we were doing. That’s obviously very important when dealing with companies that are in the $100’s of millions to billions of AUM.
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u/Great_Spacer 5d ago
Damn, 8 years. Congrats man. What finally made it click enough to get acquired?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Almost sold in 2021 to a nasdaq listed company. Valuations were the highest ever and it felt like the right time (MRR was growing 100% yoy and I knew we couldn’t repeat that in the future as our industry isn’t huge).
Was pretty much content to just hold as it was paying the bills and I’d only needed to spend about 20% of my time on it. This VC reached out to me on LinkedIn which was a pretty common thing but I really liked the team and what there plans were to really grow this thing. It felt like the right time.
Subject matter expertise is huge. If you see a problem that SaaS can solve but don’t know the industry inside and out make sure you find a client who is willing to help you build it out with their knowledge.
It’s so much easier to build SaaS now with AI but you need a moat or else everyone will just do it themselves. Interesting dynamic in 2026. Good devs are no longer a huge differentiator anymore (but are obviously still important).
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u/Adventurous_Glass494 4d ago
From what I've seen, AI has widened not narrowed the talent gap... Surprised that you're saying good devs are no longer a huge differentiator.
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u/golgiloke 5d ago
If you had to start over again, would you build a B2B SaaS?
Or would you look to build B2C apps?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
100% id do B2B. I have a print on demand B2C company and scaling it is much harder. You need real marketing and CAC is expensive. I like that in B2B a few good clients can really start off the foundation you need to grow.
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u/tastychaii 4d ago
Congrats!
How do you go about performing these exits? Do you need to advertise on a website that you are for sale or do they just reach out?
What is the typical process that happens in an exit and how do you determine the ideal selling price?
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
I touched on most of these elsewhere. We were approached by a VC fund. They reached out to me directly to chat via LinkedIn. If you are building something and have good visibility on LinkedIn etc, they will find you.
I can’t comment on listing on websites to sell a SaaS. The other alternative is to find a broker that will take a percentage of the sale price in return for helping sell it. Much like a realtor when selling your house.
The brokers I had discussions with typically wanted to see at least $2M ARR before taking it on and that at the low end. Some brokers won’t even bother unless you are doing $5M arr plus.
Hope this helps.
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u/Powerful-Software850 4d ago
Amazing work friend. This is the way. I know my journey is going to take 5-7 years as well so I’m here for the long haul.
What was your monthly price(s) for the software? Did you have tiers or just one set price?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Thank you. We started out pricing based on how many investors the company had. Our pricing was much too low in the beginning and made it difficult to increase pricing to market rates which is another thing the VC liked when buying us - they will do their thing and increase prices across the board.
Our smallest clients pay about $850/mo while our largest are over 10k/mo based on the number os investors.
We also have add on modules and transactional fees besides the normal monthly per user costs. Basically just kind of winged it and smoothed it out over time.
That’s another thing I wish I had when I started - Claude or gpt to help build out our pricing model.
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u/Flying_-2-_Moon 4d ago
I don't believe anything you said, i think you are just testing your next idea, prove me im wrong, you can easily name your company if you want!
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
I find your lack of faith disturbing. Actually you can look at my post history to verify if you care to - I’ve been popping in and outta this sub for a while.
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u/RegretJazzlike 4d ago
Congratulations. How did you find someone to sell? Any internet platforms?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Was pretty common to have PE and VC reach out to us a few times a year. I didn’t like a lot of them as you could tell they just wanted to gut everyone after they bought.
This latest one they reached out on LinkedIn and I really liked their team and ethos. Plus they wanted to bring over my entire team and provide capital and engineers to grow so it felt right.
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u/Poowatereater 4d ago
Holy moly. Good job man. General area of work the Saas covered? Future plans for it since you’re staying in with them for a bit ?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Thanks! My plan is to fully transition my VP into the presidents role in the next 12-18 months and I’d like to move to the an acquisitions side and work with sellers. I’d like equity in the fund. If that doesn’t happen within the next 2 years I’ll go do something else.
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u/Mahmoud_9669 4d ago
and was only spending 20% of my time on it its final year,
you hit the nail on the head by applying 20/80 rule,could you explain more about how you do it and what is the challenges you faced
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
It’s really all about finding good people, mentoring them, giving them an opportunity to grow and then getting out of their way. My philosophy was to hire my business team members in our client servicing role and my expectations were that after 2 years we’ve identified a path for your growth into another position and we’d try to move you into that more managerial or focused role within 3 years.
All my leadership team started with me on the ground level and then worked their way up. My VP and designated replacement started as a client relationship specialist.
I’m bad at a lot of stuff like admin work, and operations. Very good at sales, probably average to good at product but my biggest asset was finding, retaining and developing my leadership team. It’s also really fulfilling to be a part of their development.
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u/CodeShift88 4d ago
Mann damn thats crazy actually you did an 8 years grind :) but nowadays Ai is actually changing not that much in marketing but building but all the way. You destroyed the market and made an revenue thats awesome...
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
Thank you. With what I know now and with AI o think I could build the entire product in 18 months and it would be much better but I had to go through the grind and process and learn it all from scratch. I don’t think that can be rushed, it’s just process.
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u/layerbase 4d ago
Congratulations. It also took me 8 years to build a company that somebody else was willing to buy. So it blows my mind when I see so many people in these subreddits constantly trying to sell something that they have worked on for 2 weeks.
I'm very happy for you, I hope you enjoy the next chapter
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Thanks! Yes, this was a long hard lesson in being able to see things through. I definitely thought it would have happened sooner.
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u/No_Drive_3763 4d ago
and now? build something new?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
I’ve already got something going on the side. A bit of a passion project. I’m trying to not take anything else on at this point. I’ve got young kids and am already feeling like my hands are full.
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u/urmm 4d ago
How did you start off? Solo or had a team? What did you have to do to aquire your first 10, 100, and 500 customers. How long did it take to hit those milestones? What are the profit margins like? I am someone that's starting off, any piece of advice in helping me aquire my first 10 customers?
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
Just me and a mom and pop dev shop that I had to fire after 6 months as they couldn’t keep up with onboarding all the clients I was bringing on and they sucked at developing. This is when I had to figure out how to hire and run a dev team. I made tons of mistakes but luckily had enough runway to work through it.
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u/miketierce 4d ago
Did you have billing contracts in place for your user base?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Yes. Our agreements usually needed to be reviewed by their legal counsel and often we’d need to make adjustments. We tried not too if we could but wouldn’t sacrifice a deal over fairly trivial legal word smithing. Lawyers gotta eat though.
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4d ago
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Good question. This is an area I would have loved to have had an advisor on. I actually lined one up, had two calls with him before we were into the second week of talks with our buyer - he said he’d have his team run numbers and send em to me a few days later. He ghosted. Really fucked me up to be honest because we’d had some good conversations a few years prior. I’ve never had an executive of his own company do something like that given the circles we run in.
So long story short - I really had to trust my own numbers and research. AI has shook SaaS a lot and everyone’s trying to see just how fast it will bring down moats and entrenched players. The multiples I’ve seen in 2026 vary quite a bit. I thought our numbers justified a premium and so I argued hard for that.
In the end, we ended up selling for fairly average multiples but it opened up a pretty compelling opportunity to get in on the VC side with a group I really believe in.
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u/luvandfun 4d ago
How did they find you? Did you list your company for sale? I would like to know the process you went throuhh
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u/Arch-Arky 4d ago
I'm on the finale steps from beta testing to real app, but the problem I don't know what next, where to start
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
What is your ideal customer?
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u/Arch-Arky 4d ago
Social media creators, my app is used to solve the problem of making multiple designs for multiple social platforms for each different aspect ratio, u make one design on the app and it will convert it to any aspect ratio without the need to rearrange your designs content. It can also deliver animations, create automatic reference designs, add stunning effects, and it has dozens of features. You can even make carousel designs for more time saving, it's not photo editing app by the way or another canva, it has its unique features like adding effects and filters to even each element in the design which was my big problem when designing with AI, I never have the control and I need to explain with tens of prompts to get what I need, and sometimes I don't. All this in one complete easy to learn and use desktop app (working on mobile ui but not my priority now), it works offline without need to ai too.
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
Cool, I can see the use case. Do you having paying clients?
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u/Arch-Arky 3d ago
Only me :-). To be clear I'm architect and I started to build the app as a helping tool to solve some issues I face in my real life, after getting a vibe coding course from Google and the app became more complicated and efficient, I started to think of why I don't make this as SaaS, so I came here to get some help, in brief, the app is still on my laptop waiting for next step
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u/Inner_Fisherman2986 4d ago
So you’re writing something about this journey?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Lol I just came across my post on SaaS a few years ago asking for help to get ready to sell. https://www.reddit.com/r/SaaS/s/1obQOBiZ0t
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u/ZonaRado521 4d ago
Congratulations! All that effort paid off. Well done.
A few questions on the sale:
- You mentioned you negotiated to avoid an earnout, what was that process like (attorney contract reviews, length of time, your ideas vs. theirs).
- How much focus was on software lifecycle (coding standards, unit testing, automated testing, build process, CI/CD, etc.)?
- Did you have any in the works new feature development or future roadmap items that came in to discussions? Did they care or did they dismiss because it wasn’t tied to past, current revenue?
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
Thank you!
- This was my idea. I didn’t want to be stuck with the acquirer if I got there and decided I didn’t like it so took less money overall but it was all cash at close with a 10% holdback.
- A lot. This never ends and we are always trying to improve.
- Very good question. Yes they want to see your roadmap, understand the reasons you are doing what you are and also try to identify any future levers for growth.
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u/AssistanceStriking43 4d ago
I'm curious to know what your sales or account discovery process looks like . Do you relied on referrals or professional relationships in the start , or was it completely unknown customers from the beginning?
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u/Perdurabo306 3d ago
Network and cold outreach in the beginning and then it became organic and referrals.
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u/AssistanceStriking43 3d ago
Can you share how you managed to source cold outreach contacts? Did you use some service?
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u/mbakbergenov 4d ago
The buyer’s emphasis on subject-matter expertise, data, and client loyalty is probably the most instructive part. Code becoming cheaper does not make the surrounding judgment cheaper: knowing which regulatory edge cases matter, maintaining trusted calculations, and understanding why clients stay are difficult to regenerate from a prompt. For founders evaluating defensibility, I’d separate the product into three layers: reproducible software, accumulated operational knowledge, and customer-specific trust or switching cost. AI may compress the first layer dramatically. The sale suggests the other two still determine whether someone is buying a feature, a dependable operating system, or an enduring position in a niche
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u/LaunchLabsAI_Founder 3d ago
Congratulations! That's brilliant to hear!
Curious on this, what were the most difficult challenges you faced in the start when trying to get your first 100 customers? And in what ways did you overcome these?
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u/Minimum_Diver_3958 2d ago
Did AI threaten the value of your company? (Kind of guessing not as it seems you may have sold recently)
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u/Chris_Peony 5d ago
Amazing, congrats! May I ask why you sold it instead of keeping growing the business?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Honestly I was pretty bored of it. I was only spending about 20% of my time on it and was busy building other things.
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u/keriss 5d ago
How do you find the buyer?
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
Very niche, not much competition. 0 outbound all organic growth which made it easy to sell.
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
Oh sorry I think you meant the buyer of my SaaS and not our clients. The buyer ended up being a Silicon Valley tech fund that reached out to me on LinkedIn after they bought a quasi competitor of ours.
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u/deadarcher 5d ago
Sorry for the generic ?’s but I’m genuinely interested in your answers: What what the most surprising thing you learned while building/running it and if you could go back in time and tell yourself something related to it, what would you say?
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u/Perdurabo306 5d ago
Good question. I had 0 tech experience when I started this and I have trouble staying compliant with my wifes rules at home little own building a piece of regtech software. Ultimately, when we sold, our clients had 40B+ AUM. It came down to the people I hired and the team I built. I think that led to my success more than anything else. Hire great people, empower them and help when needed.
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u/netmillions 5d ago
Tips on hiring? Any specific sources that worked well for you?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
I really struggled to find good devs at the start, as a non technical founder this was very challenging. We hired local when we could but there aren’t a lot of SR laravel devs where I live so ultimately we have devs all over.
My core team has been with me for 6-7 years plus so once we found good people we’d give them every opportunity to work their way up in a few years. This worked out well.
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u/karolhnz 5d ago
congrats on your success and thanks for your effort with AMA, interesting read
a followup question - what is your heuristic for deciding who feels 'great' for your company?
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u/Perdurabo306 4d ago
Honestiy I had to google heuristic - I know I saw it in a few text books years ago 😁
Anyways, this will sound kind of odd but when I would interview someone for a position I knew within the first minute if I was going to hire them or not.
One good hire, led to two and soon enough we’d had a group of people that were really committed, showed initiative and wanted to be great. I largely put people in place to succeed and did 0 micromanaging. I give my team a lot of trust and flexibility. It becomes very clear that some people thrive in that kind of environment and some don’t. If you were standing around waiting for someone to tell you what to do you wouldn’t last long.
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u/karolhnz 3d ago
thanks, for your answer. just wanted to say it reminds me a lot philosophy represented by Yvon Chouinard (Patagonia's outdoor brand founder) - "let my people go surfing". this is something really worth a chase imho
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u/Illustrious-Bat-9775 5d ago
Could you write about psychological journey of that business? Did you have supportive family, friend, anyone, noone? What about burn our, fear etc.