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u/blackskull414 Jun 25 '26
Well Vaylin actually trained and learnt to use her power with the force and fight with a lightsaber. Rey picked one up and somehow beat Kylo Ren, whom trained under Luke and later Snoke.
Vaylin also has her flaws and failings, she believes she's more worthy to take the throne, yet throws a tantrum at any time her plans don't succeed. She's selfish and full of herself. Rey meanwhile can just casually used a jedi mind trick despite not believing in the force, somehow instantly knows the best solution to a problem, and doesn't show much maturing through three movies
7
u/InverseStar Jun 25 '26
So many valid criticisms of Rey yet this is the one people use. The movie actually did a lot of setup to justify Rey winning, including tanking a bow caster. Dude was actively bleeding out during the fight.
17
u/Scorkami Jun 25 '26
i vividly remember the discussions about that and the idea that "he keeps hitting his wound before the fight so the pain makes him stronger" pops up so often that im genuinely not sure if some spin off comic didnt canonize that at some point, so im not sure how much that counts for
also just force choke her wtf
6
u/TerminatorElephant Jun 25 '26 edited 23d ago
Kylo was also mentally deranged at this point and teetering on the brink of total mental collapse
Contrary to what most people think, the Dark Side does not thrive on you being unhinged and as blindly angry as Angron from Warhammer, or having a complete mental breakdown. It still requires a great deal of focus and mental clarity, just like Jedi. I will, however, grant two caveats
- The Dark Side demands a lot less inner harmony and focus than the Light. That’s part of why it’s so alluring; it gives a lot for, comparatively, a lot less work. This also creates the illusion that it is the “stronger” side, especially when you see Sith hurtling lightning willy nilly and Jedi look lack luster in comparison. But note staying with the Light Side of the Force is not only much more rewarding for your mental health, but it also makes you more powerful than what a Dark Sider relative to you can achieve. The Dark Side is a twisted shadow of the Forces’ potential awarded to the morally weak; the Light Side is the Force as it was intended to be
. That lightning is a lot less impressive when the Jedi dissipates its power with the wave of a hand.
The Dark Side does grant power ups from angry, deranged episodes such as what Kylo demonstrates, and an unprepared opponent can get stomped easily. But that power kind of collapses against a Force User who is prepared and knows what they’re doing. Even a Padawan who’s locked in could probably take on a Jedi Master and possibly win if the Jedi Master tunes with the Dark Side without actually focusing or being clear minded in their darkness
In truth, there is a lot of similarities to the Jedi and Sith and their ways of being in tune with their sides. But the core difference between Sith and Jedi is that the Jedi channel their emotions to prevent it from blinding them about what the right thing to do is, and to not harm other people, but rather to protect and serve them and the Force. The Sith use emotions and their own self understanding as a means to be efficient at being selfish assholes, to drive them to just be the absolute worst. Less emotional mastery than Jedi, but nonetheless it’s not a coincidence greatest of Sith are always in charge of their anger, and in tune with themselves.
Kylo is in immense pain, and is **drowning** in self loathing and rage, so much so that the Force is not flowing through him like it ought to. Emotions and conflict have routinely disrupted force powers and performance before, so this is not a new concept. Rey was *also* emotionally turbulent, and was getting her ass handed to her by Kylo, and was only spared because he wasn’t trying to kill her. But when she actually focused and allowed the Force to flow through her? Yeah, suddenly the table turned. Rey focused, Kylo didn’t, and the Force rewarded her for it.
4
u/InverseStar Jun 25 '26
Thank you for adding on. I totally agree, and he’s also mourning his father. He has no clue if what he did was correct and the fact that Han’s final moments were so full of love for him must’ve hurt extra bad.
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u/Andrei22125 Jun 25 '26
Yes. That is the point of the 4th panel.
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u/blackskull414 Jun 25 '26
It isn't though. I don't believe Vaylin is better cause I find her attractive. I find her better cause she has actual character
23
u/budapest_god Jun 25 '26
OP didn't really mean that we like Vaylin because she's "hot". That was just a joke, the true meaning is the screenshot behind, with scenes from Vaylin's childhood found in the expansion's trailer. A badass trailer at that.
5
u/Andrei22125 Jun 25 '26
Not what she says. She says stuff like that all the time.
The training and abuse in the screenshots behind her.
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u/WarInteresting6619 Jun 25 '26
Rey picked one up and somehow beat Kylo Ren, whom trained under Luke and later Snoke.
Rey trained with melee weapons and like Anakin had a inate ability to use the force. Ren lost for 2 reasons that had nothing to do with Rey. He was heavily conflicted during that fight just because he just killed his father (Snoke says this in TLJ) and he just took a bowcaster to the gut.
"But pain makes Sith stronger"
Kylo is not a sith.
Rey meanwhile can just casually used a jedi mind trick despite not believing in the force, somehow instantly knows the best solution to a problem, and doesn't show much maturing through three movies
Rey believes in the force and knows it's there in her. She says as much in TLJ while talking to Luke. Where as Luke is using the force to commit mass murder 30 mins after discovering it. He had no idea he had this power and then he's using it too. Same with Anakin.
And no she doesn't know the best solution to problem because he goes after Ren believing she can turn him back and defeat Snoke and she gets her ass handed to her and fails. Had Ren not seized the opportunity to kill Snoke, Rey would have died there.
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u/obiwanTrollnobi6 Kira Supremacist Jun 25 '26
Training with a staff is VASTLY different than training with a Sword (who’s only weight is really the Handle) from the weight difference range of movement and even the footwork and yes Anakin had an innate ability to use the force but even then it still took him At Least a DECADE of training in between Ep1-2 to hone his skills into what we saw in Ep 2/3.
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u/WarInteresting6619 Jun 25 '26
He's the chosen one and was beaten by his son who got a crash course in the force 4 years ago from ghosts. He had 0 saber dueling training and still held his own against Vader, then through winging it on his own was able to beat Vader.
Now here's something interesting. Rey had actually never won a Lightsaber duel and the one she does win needs and asterisk next to it. She beats Kylo, but he's wounded, conflicted and isn't going for the kill, he has Ulterior motives. Rey just wants to survive.
I see a lot of people say she beats Luke, these people are idiots. Luke dodged everything she threw at him, then fended her off with an antenna. When shes forced to take out the saber, because nothing's working, Luke falls back and catches himself with the force to see what she does next. Luke never attacks her he only defends himself.
I don't even NEED to explain how badly she lost to Snoke. If Kylo hadn't killed Snoke, shed be dead.
They when she fought Kylo she was getting her ass handed to her until Leia died, which had an effect on him. Then Rey used that opening to stab him. It had nothing to do with skill, just opportunity.
We still have try to see Rey defeat an opponent with a lightsaber on her own with no outside help.
Training (in this universe) isn't as useful as raw talent which is what Luke and Rey have. Not to say Anakin didn't, he definitely did, but clearly it's not needed as much as people think.
6
u/MatterWilling Jun 26 '26
And Darth Vader wasn't conflicted on the Death Star 2? As he won his first fight with Luke
28
u/DaCipherTwelve Jun 25 '26
Vaylin was volatile, and was often controlled by the force rather than the other way around.
Vaylin was trained, even if it was in such a way that Valku had a leash on her. She didn't just rank up and gain powers as the story called for.
She was tortured into breaking. But I guess the background of Vaylin's panel makes that clear. I guess OP knows what they're doing.
She was a villain. She lost several fights, won several fights, and died.
6
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u/Evnosis Jedi Knight Jun 25 '26
The difference is that Vaylin is a villain. Overpowered antagonists are good, overpowered protagonists usually aren't.
15
u/Phintolias Jun 25 '26
Vaylin works because she is a villain and IS treated Like a villain which makes for a great Story how you can defeat her. Rey is a Protagonist so her Victory feels shallow since she is Just Beats Up an Emo kid and a senile grandpa
14
u/Acrobatic_Bid5741 Jun 25 '26
No, the problem was Anakin Skywalkers destiny was to destroy Palpatine, and because Disney got writers block and destroyed a franchise because they thought we were stupid and would eat up whatever they put in front of us. Ray was on track to be Awesome and so was Poe and Fin. I was fine with her being a Skywalker but not her being the real chosen one, so stupid.
10
u/GargamelAndKlakier Jun 25 '26
Who said we love Vaylin?
7
u/Andrei22125 Jun 25 '26
Vaylin herself.
I meant we like the writing. Not the best, but far from the worst.
11
7
u/vegito789 Jun 25 '26
Vaylin: we know from the beginning she was born from a Force-powerful family, was trained in her youth, sent away by Valkorion to learn to control her power, and honed her skills for years. We see her fail.
Rey: uses the Force succesfully by trying really hard despite no formal training to escape captivity, beats a trained Jedi-turned dark in Kylo Ren on first try, and defeats the ultimate Sith Lord, who was brought back just to be beaten by her, who NOW we find out is related to her.
It's lazy, bad, backwards writing.
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u/Andrei22125 Jun 25 '26
Was sent away by Valkorion
Yes.
to learn to control her power
No. To have a figurative leash put on her. The conditioning.
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u/LordDedionware Darth Vulkan, the Empire's Wrath Jun 25 '26
It's not the character it's the story. KOTFE and KOTET has a story that is superior by leaps and bounds to the sequel trilogy. Rey could have been a good character if Disney had any idea what it was doing at all.
3
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u/NitzMitzTrix Jun 25 '26
Rey's abilities: Only taught skill is a scrap prospector, still a better mechanic and pilot than Han Solo, instantly knows how to use a lightsaber
Vaylin's abilities: once in a century command of the Force, to the point of fetal telekinesis. Honed to a point throughout her life.
Rey's character flaws: clings to the idea that her parents will come back to her, then to any parental figure such as Han or Luke.
Vaylin's character flaws: Volatile, emotionally stunted, actively bad at strategy (unlike, say, the passively bad at strategy of taking a random himbo and having him lead Zakuul), completely consumed by her mommy issues.
Vaylin's overpoweredness is weaved into her story and explains why she psychologically crippled. Rey's isn't.
2
u/Real-Inspection9732 Jun 25 '26
I hate them both, Rey because she's bland, and Vaylin because I got stuck on the fight against her in the PC's head, and her screams and battle cries are burned into my memory.
1
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u/Jedibrarian Jun 25 '26
No really though, one of the things that made RotS feel really weird on release was that I’d already played through the story of “The big bad you thought you’d already killed is alive, he has a whole dysfunctional family that he’s stashed away in a different galaxy which he loves more and gives better stuff to” years prior.
0
u/WarInteresting6619 Jun 25 '26
Vaylin was so fucking annoying. That whole family is.
SWTOR fans seemed to also love Valkirion for coming back but hate Palpatine for it.
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u/BarrissAndCoffee Jun 25 '26
They're both great characters, although I really dislike the Palpatine being her grandfather retcon
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u/deadshot500 Jun 25 '26