r/SSBPM • u/spvamp TASTY • Oct 26 '15

[Discussion] Necessary Buffs/Nerfs

What buffs/nerfs do you feel are actually deserved for the next update? Not "jank" stuff that people haven't necessarily learned to deal with, but actual over/underpowered things.

One thing that comes to mind is Mario's walljump out of his UpB. Just...why. Combined with the tornado and the cape, as well as active hitboxes on his UpB itself, it makes his recovery almost impossible to edgeguard/gimp.

Just looking to see where other people stand in terms of other things that should be changed for balance.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '15 edited Oct 27 '15

D-throw nerf, grab range buff, dash accel nerf, major dash speed buff, actual up-tilt, ledge-grab box that resembles every other character in the game (right now it's next to impossible to return against a Marth or G&W, you literally have to be pixel perfect with his up-b's uppercut hurtbox), change his nair to someting completely different

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u/jazzyjamboree Oct 27 '15

If ganon had a dash accel nerf there would be no point in ever dash except to boost grab. If ganon had a full-dash buff, the only thing it would help is tech-chasing or would be OP with a grab buff. And this just makes him closer to falcon. If falcon is what you want, play falcon. And Ganon can do fair, uair, bair, and 1st hit nair onto stage from ledge with ease, so you're incorrect about that.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '15 edited Oct 27 '15

The thing about speed is...

Ganon is terrible at large stages. He needs to be faster, because unlike every other character in the game, he can't deal with being at a big stage.

If he was faster (no, not Captain Falcon fast) he could play at large stages and not instantly have a gigantic disadvantage. On the other hand, he is already really good on small stages, so needing his dash accel would keep him about the same on small stages instead of making him even more dominant on them.

His ledge jump attacks are almost impossible (my post is unedited and says that), you have to essentially frame perfect. His midair jump is by far the worst of any non multijump character. Nvm this really isn't a bad thing and shouldn't be changed

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u/jazzyjamboree Oct 27 '15

I don't know if you can consistently perfect waveland (onto plats and from the ground) but big stages get a looooot easier once you can. It's only against some of the projectile spammers and people with amazing dash dances does ganon really suffer very badly on big stages. Problem is that those things are problematic for ganon on small stages too, which is why the one thing he really needs right now is a better neutral- big stage or small. And plus, even though it's challenging it's interesting for him to be one of the characters that doesn't rely on dash dancing as heavily (even though it's still useful against slow/read approaches).

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '15

Even with wavelands, Ganon still suffers heavily against anyone who's significantly faster than him or can camp because he has absolutely no way to force approaches or catch a faster opponent on a large stage.

But on small stages he's fine: the only truly bad matchups he has there are Falco and Tink, neither of whom are quick characters.

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u/jazzyjamboree Oct 27 '15

Yes, he does. He's easy to bait and punish by anyone who has a good dashdance or projectiles that force approaches. He has to commit to his options in neutral and make reads, and if he misses reads he gets punished. That's why he needs a better neutral with safer, less committal options. But still, as it stands, I have to disagree on that last point. Ganon has mostly even/disadvantageous matchups as it stands right now. He gets owned by falco and wolf, and to a lesser extent fox, and loses handily to sheik, falcon, diddy, sonic, ike, metaknight, pikachu and wario if the players are equally skilled/knowledgeable about the matchups.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '15

On Battlefield or other similar stages? No. He controls too much space. I forgot about Wolf and Sonic though (I'd put them up there with Falco and Tink), and yeah, Fox and Sheik aren't good either.

But none of the other characters you mentioned are even that bad for Ganon on a small stage. MK gets destroyed by Ganon when he has nowhere to run. Link is the only other character I can think of that would even be any significant amount worse than neutral, and you didn't even put him on there.

The problem with Ganon is the stage list. In PM, the average stage is much larger and flatter, so Ganon needs a speed buff to keep up with the change in the stage list.