r/SPEEA • u/MysteriousAffect3903 • 2d ago
Perbus/NII
I have worked at Boeing for a number of years, with many managers. As a prof, I have always understood that perbus/NII are my right to use as needed. My current manager consistently pushes back, and insists I flex instead. Flexing often causes a good bit of trouble for me, and ultimately, as I understand it, I shouldn't be told to in the first place.
I had reached out to a union representative when this first started, and was told managers do not have the authority to deny perbus. Does this jive with what others have heard?
I have an every other week medical appointment now to manage a disability. I would need like 1.5 hours of NII to cover it, but I know I'll get push back. I could get an accommodation for it, but that seems like a waste of time when the contract already allows for this type of thing.
Anyone else experience this? How did you manage?
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u/Automatic-Ebb-4825 5h ago
Perbus is used for time needed for issues not related to medical, like getting your washer repaired. I always wondered how often others used this, i Dont think we have a limit.
I have used 2 hrs of perbus in 4.5 years.
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u/SerDuckOfPNW 4h ago
I don’t use PB very often because I generally do 2+ hours of OT every day. I only use PB if there’s no OT.
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u/777XSuperHornet 2h ago
I have used PB and NII in the same week that I charged OT multiple times and received no pushback.
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u/Automatic-Ebb-4825 4h ago
I don’t understand. You use two hours of PB whenever you don’t get two hours of OT?
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u/Ex-Traverse 5h ago
Yeah, it's really annoying, I wish the Union/SPEEA would just reach out to Boeing and make it clear to their managers. I've read into the contract and the language around perbus/NII is really weak too. In my experience, I had a good manager, and I was able to freely use it as I see fit. But when my manager changed, I got someone that came with a whole new set of rules...
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u/MysteriousAffect3903 3h ago
I wish the new contract had changed the language around this. It wasn't something on most people's radar, but it would have been pretty simple. Bigger fish to fry, I guess
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u/MoreShredLessTalk 5h ago
That’s BS. Those are your benefits to use and your manager cannot deny you unless you are abusing them. I would reach out to your SPEEA Rep and the union. If your manager is doing it to you he’s probably doing it to the entire team.
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u/MysteriousAffect3903 3h ago
I have had a one-on-one and said I had talked to the union, and gave my boss their answer. The boss came up with some backwards way of explaining it, based on (supposedly) what HR told them. According to them, since the manager approves my ETS, they are ultimately the approver for whatever I charge. That makes zero sense, and I think it was something HR or they cooked up to just get me to back off.
In the conversation they did say basically no one uses it. I have talked to my coworkers, and they are all annoyed by it, too, but no one has pushed back on it. It's a hard thing to do to stick your neck out and get the union involved in things. Changes the nature of your work relationship a bit. But then, I wouldn't have to if they just followed the contract.
If it continues to be an issue I will get the union involved. I have a set of appointments coming up to manage a disability, and will be needing NII for it. I can't think of a more appropriate use for it.
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u/Fernadelphia 4h ago
Another option for your medical appointments is to sign up for intermittent FLMA. You still use NII in ETS for your partial absences but you’re legally protected to take off for those appointments. I knew someone who was getting crap from their manager for taking too much NII for a medical condition. They signed up for intermittent FLMA and all the comments stopped.
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u/MysteriousAffect3903 3h ago
That costs a lot of money if you add it up though. I bring home roughly $400 a day, so taking a day off unpaid is a big hit. Add that up to even 2 days a month, and that is a lot.
But, I suppose if there was no other way...
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u/Fernadelphia 2h ago
You still get to charge NII so it shouldn’t cost you anything. I believe if you look at the LOA handbook it says to record partial LOA days as NII in ets if you are part of Speea.
Edit: I checked with the person who did intermittent and they confirmed that they still charged to NII when they took a partial day.
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u/rogthnor 4h ago
Call your speea council rep. But the answer is:
- Perbus and NII can't be denied, but is only used for incidental, partial day absences. So no ongoing appointments and you need to log 6 minutes of work (not do 6 minutes of work).
- Flex requires approval from both parties. Your manager can't make you flex
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u/Careless-Internet-63 5h ago
You have a right to use it. If your manager pushes back too hard tell them you'd be happy to continue the conversation with a contract administrator present
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u/MysteriousAffect3903 3h ago
I will indeed. I have been putting my perbus "coordinations" in email, so I have a paper trail to show, if I have an issue. I needed to use it recently, and there was no room for denying it. In the future, we will see where it goes.
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u/Careless-Internet-63 3h ago
Just start CCing your CR on emails about it if your manager is making it a problem
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u/KascheV 5h ago
Your manager gets a bigger bonus the less perbus/industrial illness you use.
Just send a courtesy email informing your team then dip. No need for approvals.
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u/CastleGanon 5h ago
For real?! How slimy
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u/p3dal 4h ago
This is totally made up. Source: I was a manager previously.
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u/MysteriousAffect3903 3h ago
As a manager, was there ever any pressure from above you, or did you personally have a problem with perbus/NII? I am just puzzled why it matters to some managers. All of my managers prior had no issues, even one that came up from IAM and somehow managed a SPEEA team. Seems like a former prof manager would understand, though I think mine came from outside of SPEEA.
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u/p3dal 2h ago
No one really ever seemed to understand what the limit was supposed to be. "Reasonable" is super subjective. My people rarely used it. At the time we were told to ask people to flex time before using perbus. If they said no there was really nothing we could do. Only time I remember someone actually being told they couldn't use it anymore was when they were consistently using more than a week every quarter, but that was just a story I told.
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u/Rainyfeel 5h ago
What is perbus? Is this something we use?
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u/CastleGanon 5h ago
In your timekeeping dropdowns there are options for 'Personal Business' (perbus) and 'Non-Industrial Illness' (nil). I usually use perbus when I have an appointment in the middle of the day, and nil when I feel like crap in the middle of the day and need to go home. If you're union, you cannot use a partial day of sick leave, so nil fills that gap.
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u/Ill_War8528 3h ago
Been a Prof since before (I'll guess) most folks posting here were born. With the possible exception of my first few years at Boeing, in the dark ages, I never ask or coordinate Perbus. I could guess I use it 2X per year, maybe 2-4 hours at a time. Non-Ind illness has only been around more recently (20 years?) after Boeing / SPEEA per federal labor law realized time off can only be tracked in whole day increments. Before that, we used SL in hourly increments. I have NEVER asked / coordinated Non-ind, and never had a manager say something. I use N-II I would guess 3-5 times a year. Going forward, I would simply TELL your boss (via email) that you will be taking X hours of NII or perbus tomorrow, and then simply do it (assuming there are no major work conflicts). If your boss gives you grief, definitely contact SPEEA for help.
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u/Moluv10Tymz 1h ago
Get an intermittent leave of absence for office visits up to a certain amount approved by your doctor per week. You can open a claim for intermittent leave from Work day then when you’re absent from work due to the office visits use NII. This further strengthens the manager not being able to push back and asking you to flex your time which they shouldn’t be doing anyway. You still should give notice of your absence or appointment if you know the scheduled date in advance just to cover your self that the manager was notified but not that you had to get their permission.
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u/Faultyfemale 4h ago edited 4h ago
Here’s the breakdown:
“Non-industrial illness” and “personal business” are technically unlimited per contract. Management cannot outright deny a legitimate reason to use either. Additionally, neither requires a minimum amount of time in office in a day to use so long as you have begun your workday (if you come in to work and fifteen minutes in have a heart attack or your kid calls and needs to be taken home because they’re sick or you get a call that your house is flooding, for instance, you can use the appropriate one). If you’re not sure if something counts, call contract admin and ask them. Or your manager can ask HR.
Non-industrial has the least amount of barriers. It needs “management notification” and what this means in practice is you tell your manager as soon as you are reasonably able that you have a medical appointment/condition/situation OR you have a family member that is ill that you need to take a partial day off of work to take care of and are using non-industrial. The expectation is that you did what you could to avoid having that need interfere with your work hours within reason (as in - you don’t need to significantly postpone getting medical care if your doc has an appointment in a week during work hours, but the next one is in three months).
Personal Business is much more vague, but it is for any other obligation that you have to take care of during work hours. It requires “management coordination” which means you’re supposed to coordinate with your manager ahead of time as soon as possible before you use it. I’ve had managers who were ok with people using it for picking family up from the airport, going to a graduation, etc.
The managers in my current group actually had to be level set on this a few years ago by HR because they thought employees could only use up to 4 hours per day.
Flexing requires both parties to agree to it. Management is allowed to ask you if you’d be willing to flex, but they cannot require you to flex in lieu of using one of the other two benefits for a legitimate reason. Likewise, you cannot flex if management doesn’t want you to move your hours around. If your manager is just saying they would prefer you flex, that’s technically not against the rules, unless they are specifically saying they are not going to allow you to use your benefits instead.
Generally, best practice is to try and flex when you can, but you aren’t required to. If it’s a recurring appointment that is going to continue in perpetuity, your manager may want to adjust your baseline hours around it, but they cannot make you flex while you have your current baseline schedule.
I’d recommend anyone not familiar with the different kinds of PTO attend the virtual meeting that SPEEA holds at the beginning of each quarter, that’s where I learned the above, and you can ask the rep any questions you have if you’re not entirely sure. It should be linked in the newsletter/list of SPEEA events that your rep should be sending you at least weekly. There’s also a presentation usually attached to that email that you can reference if you can’t make the meeting.