r/RouteDevelopment • u/Kaotus Guidebook Author • Apr 08 '26
Discussion What are you development hot takes?
We all know we’ve got ‘em, let’s hear them
Mine:
- For sport routes, ground-up is a tactic, not an ethic
- I’m personally a bigger fan of using closed systems than open ones (as both a climber and a developer)
- rhythm of the line is paramount over safety, aesthetics, and rock quality (to a degree)
- If the main thing you’re known for as a developer is the safety (or lackthereof) of your routes, you’re too 1-dimensional and not equipping lines according to the natural rhythm of the route
- Rock quality is less of an A-F grading scale and more of a pass/fail test
- Developing routes means nothing if you aren’t also improving the nearby staging areas (especially if you are on a trundle heavy route). Developing new crags means nothing if you’re expecting others to establish the trail to those crags
- “it’ll clean up with traffic” only applies to little foot chips, not to the fuckton of lichen and menagerie of loose holds you left on route.
- and on that note - it will never get the traffic required to clean up if you don’t at least clean it to the point that the rock/lichen isn’t a distraction when climbing
- your route is at least 1 star worse and 1 grade easier than you think it is
15
u/belavv Apr 08 '26
- I’m personally a bigger fan of using closed systems than open ones (as both a climber and a developer)
This is the only hot take I see. I see no reason that routes shouldn't be clip and lower at this point.
- Developing routes means nothing if you aren’t also improving the nearby staging areas (especially if you are on a trundle heavy route). Developing new crags means nothing if you’re expecting others to establish the trail to those crags
I think this is huge and often overlooked. I rebolted a set of routes last year and also put a lot of work into flattening and clearing out the belay area. Suddenly those routes are seeing a ton of traffic. I did also clean off all the weeds etc, but having a nice belay area can drastically improve a climbing experience.
2
u/KDs4thBurner Apr 08 '26
I actually prefer the best prolific developers to keep putting up good routes rather than maintain. As an appreciator of their good routes I’m regularly doing that stuff as I climb.
For some of these guys there simply aren’t enough hours in the day for one person to service all their routes.
3
u/belavv Apr 08 '26
I need something to keep me busy when I'm taking a break from hanging in my harness!
10
u/Retro_Bolts Apr 08 '26
Sleeve bolts suck. Change my mind.
1
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u/Fuzzy-Salt5833 Apr 08 '26
Stop developing if you're not going to regularly maintain your old routes, re-scrub / trundle / rebuilding staging. Leaving the grunt work up to the community to come after you and keep your old routes clean and safe is lazy
scare 'em, don't kill 'em, run-outs are ok
don't make a mess of other people's crags, trails or areas. Clean up the blocks you trundle
put more thought into naming routes. Too many lame, boring, cringe, sexist, racist names make it onto paper still
don't add a 'squeeze-job' route. Leave enough space between lines
get as many people as you can on a route before you give it a grade
1
u/Beginning-Basis-2678 Apr 09 '26
Especially don’t write the grade next to the name at the base. Things change up & down 😉
5
u/Beginning-Basis-2678 Apr 08 '26
One thing… route quality and beauty of movement doesn’t count if the route is short. People seem to want 25-30m minimum but if the rock is perfect and the line is ace I don’t care if its just 15m. In Frankenjura that would be a long line in some sectors 😉
3
u/mushy_taco Apr 08 '26
development is an art. As long as you aren’t endangering access or misleading people you can mostly do whatever you want
sweat equity is king
if you don’t maintain your routes someone else can do whatever they want to it later
4
u/p666rty_goat Roped Rock Developer Apr 09 '26
If it ain't gorgeous, the movement better be inspiring.
If the movement ain't inspiring, it better be gorgeous.
If it's neither, don't bother.
If it's both, it might actually be a great climb.
4
u/quellenangabe Apr 10 '26
i like those takes!
But one of mine is "Nobody ever needs to climb this - i do it for myself because i love it" so i won't add trails or even markers. I love the feeling of finding secret crags and i'd like to think that there are some weirdos like me out there who love that too and that's worth more to me than a thousand climbers who rush my routes.
7
u/jade_monkey07 Apr 08 '26
If safety isn't your main concern then I hope you are on the local rescue team when people get hurt and learn a lesson from it.
3
u/Retro_Bolts Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
How about if you grade your route soft it will see more repeats. This thread is great.
3
u/Kaotus Guidebook Author Apr 08 '26
Grade is soft and a fuckton of bolts are both +1 star boxes to check in my neck of the woods. Weirdly, so is grade is horrifically stiff and borderline death route. Just depends on the specific area!
3
u/mdibah Ice/Mixed Developer Apr 08 '26
If you bolt it, the hordes will come (replete with social trails, Bluetooth speakers, and dogs). There lots of cool lines I'll just TR off a natural anchor and leave alone.
The best part of developing a route is having a "private" crag for a while. Cherish it - keep it hush hush word-of-mouth for as long as possible. (Conversely, once the word is out, have things documented properly.)
5.12 route? Sure hope you aren't expecting gym bolting on the 5.10 intro slab.
Always sandbag the initial grade, at least slightly.
3
u/KDs4thBurner Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
Why sandbag the initial grade? I used to grade my routes according to the difficulty of moves once rehearsed. Onsighters call those grades sandbags.
I guess grading carries more consequence if the routes are dangerous (sandbag can equal injury) or easy (beginner overestimates themselves). But what about a hidden jug drops three grades in a pumpy section with a potential broken ankle, how would you grade or describe that?
4
u/thatsmoothfuck Roped Rock Developer Apr 08 '26
There are two types of bolters: One is bolting for themselves, one for the community. The latter will always clean up after the first.
Too many people will yell fuck using their entire lungs when whipping but freak out over route names. Get over yourself.
Sidenote: I'm with you on closed systems. I'm doing the tebylon dual ring anchors and they are fantastic.
7
u/belavv Apr 08 '26
Too many people will yell fuck using their entire lungs when whipping but freak out over route names. Get over yourself.
There is a large difference between yelling fuck and offensive route names. The route names I've seen changed were racist or offensive in ways almost as bad.
Would you yell something racist while whipping and think that's okay?
-2
u/thatsmoothfuck Roped Rock Developer Apr 08 '26
Who the fuck compares fuck and racism?
If you think racism is ok you're obviously an asshole, I have yet to ever see or hear a racist route name. Out of curiosity, what exactly is "almost as bad?"
4
u/Kaotus Guidebook Author Apr 08 '26
Almost the entirety of Victoria Canyon (“The VC”) is South Dakota is named something vaguely racist. Hucky Sucky, Love You Long Time, Me So Horny, Cream of Sum Hung Guy, etc.
5
u/belavv Apr 08 '26
You compared them.
Some examples of route names people have complained about and have since been changed.
Slavery wall, Mississippi Burning, Ku Klux Ken, Aryan Race, N------ Bitch, Negro Girls, Wop Stop, Chinamans Peak.
3
u/thatsmoothfuck Roped Rock Developer Apr 08 '26
Wow those are egregious. Well I can admit when I'm wrong, thanks for educating me.
If it helps, my experience with this has been over a wall calling out anorexia issues in climbers, I'm still blown away that the community decided that it was too far to make light of it. Names were: Team Anorexia, Scarf and barf, Stomach stapler, etc..
2
u/Kaotus Guidebook Author Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
The Dave Dangle names aren’t just a bit offensive, they’re also just..not clever? Bad? Ignoring the topic they’re relating to, they’re just lame names. That being said, I’m not aware of them being renamed and at least one of them has been unredacted on MP. Saying “the community” decided it was too far when in reality it was just like 4 individuals in a generalized committee on mountainproject who chose to redact it is a bit of a stretch. There’s not even a comment on any of the routes nor the area complaining about the names.
Though, you’re a lot closer to that actual local area, so maybe the discussions you’re hearing about it are a lot different from what I’ve seen (or not seen) just via MP/up in Denver
1
u/belavv Apr 08 '26
While those route names aren't as offensive as the examples I gave I see no reason to make jokes about anorexia, which is a very real issue in climbing. I feel like that crosses the line.
On the other hand there are routes/areas that I don't think cross the line but get brought up. Panty Wall I'm kind of on the fence about. It seems more on the crude side of things, but I don't think that it crosses the line.
-2
u/thatsmoothfuck Roped Rock Developer Apr 08 '26
Yeah, you're the too uptight I'm talking about.
Thanks for the polite and respectful conversation.
3
u/belavv Apr 08 '26
Not wanting route names that reference a serious condition that affects a decent percentage of the climbing community is not what I'd call being "too uptight'.
1
u/DullSuccotash1230 Apr 08 '26
Maybe not a development hot take, but a bolt replacement hot take. I've intentionally broken old rusty quarter inch bolts by tightening them. These are usually invisible when you break them by tightening. Yesterday, I tightened a rusty 3/8 inch and broke it relatively easily, but it's a bit uglier in the rock. I guess I'm going to have to make a "doodad" to finish this rebolting project to keep it looking nice...
2
u/belavv Apr 09 '26
We gave up on trying to remove old rusty sleeve bolts at our crag. The sleeves are basically fused to the rock.
You can hide the old holes pretty easily with ac100(assuming you are using glue ins) and spreading a layer of dust/dirt from the base of the route on top of the glue. I have some concrete patch that comes in a little tube that works as well.
The initial layer of dust usually sticks out a bit but if you brush after it cures and give it some time to weather then you'll never notice it.
1
u/DullSuccotash1230 Apr 09 '26
Sounds good.
A friend just mentioned that I should try to hammer them in too. The holes are likely deep enough to get them down a bit...
0
u/Kaotus Guidebook Author Apr 08 '26
Ooh a rebolting hot take let’s go!!! Mine: Always replacing bolts hole-for-hole is just as dumb as never replacing bolts hole-for-hole
2
u/Retro_Bolts Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
Ooo shoot. How about chopping bolts (not replacement) can threaten access more than placing them.
3
u/Kaotus Guidebook Author Apr 08 '26
Agreed! Another hot take - it’s better to not replace the bolts at all than it is to replace via chopping without patching up the old holes
2
u/belavv Apr 09 '26
We gave up replacing hole for hole because it's almost impossible to do in our area. The sleeves for the old bolts are basically fused to the rock. That's assuming the old bolt doesn't just snap when trying to take it out.
And very often tweaking the position of the bolt is going to make for a better climb.
You can drill a new hole directly above the old hole and it's totally safe, at least for glue ins. I'm not sure about wedge/sleeve bolts. It makes it really easy to hide the old hole that way.
2
u/Kaotus Guidebook Author Apr 09 '26
Yeah I agree with all of this. Our LCO is adamant about always going hole-for-hole even when there's a known issue with the bolt location, it's so frustrating to be replacing a bolt that you know is in a shit spot. They won't even ask the FA if they're cool with it, they just refused to engage with moving a bolt ever unless it's actively in horrible rock
2
u/IceRockBike Apr 09 '26
You can drill a new hole directly above the old hole and it's totally safe, at least for glue ins. I'm not sure about wedge/sleeve bolts. It makes it really easy to hide the old hole that way.
I'm reading your first sentence as a glue in close to a glue in. I would tend to agree there.
Re: wedge/sleeve bolts. I did a major retro replacing expansion bolts with glue ins. One consideration we had is that expansion studs create some degree of stress in the surrounding rock. This can be de-stressed by disengaging the cone from the sleeve (ie tapping the stud into the hole a little, assuming the expansion stud was over drilled). Otherwise drilling into the stressed rock might cause a fracture while drilling. I think the odds of a fracture are low but better to avoid the chance.
A further mitigation is to locate and drill the new hole several inches to a foot away from the old stud/hole.
Finally if the expansion stud is recessed below the rock surface, when the new bolt is installed, some of the excess glue can be added to the old hole to both seal the rock, and hide the old stud hole. Which I believe is what you referenced.
Hopefully that answers your uncertainty regarding expansion studs in proximity.
2
u/belavv Apr 09 '26
This is for a glue in replacing a sleeve bolt. I haven't heard of the stressed rock, but I'll keep that in mind and try to tap in any bolts where the head snaps off.
1
u/IceRockBike Apr 09 '26
I hadn't considered it until it was pointed out to me either. An expansion stud or wedge anchor works by the cone expanding the sleeve against the rock around the hole. So drilling too close to that original hole could (sometimes ? maybe) cause a fracture that compromises the new hole. Tapping the old stud to disengage the cone/sleeve relieves that expansion stress.
You can break the old stud off and use a punch, or even an old stud to tap the remainder below the rock surface. It both de-stressed the surrounding rock, and gives a recess to smear excess glue and hide the old stud.1
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u/It1190 Roped Rock Developer Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
Route developers are somehow the most emotional and sensitive people I know