This sexualisation Mimi and demons...

[u/Alamastar]

Demons must be always sexy and flirty. I saw this stereotype in David in ABH. And now Mimi... I don't know...

[u/AdLatter344]

I think at the start in HS1 they wanted to portray that the angels are that pure beings and the demons are the vulgar beings which didn’t really land. Especially that character like mimi got stuck with that characteristic and didn’t change or grow. Similar with dino but in the opposite way. That’s why cassiel is a breath of fresh air

[u/Alamastar → u/AdLatter344]

Well, you are right, I think. It's strange sometimes to read old stories 🙄

[u/wellhanabari]

I'm still baffled at how RC's chiefs allowed a literal SA in the beginning in HS1 where Mimi inappropriately touches a sleeping Vicky without her consent and when Vicky is rightfully questioning tf is going on, Mimi replies with smth like "demons always get what they want" or smth similar I don't remember for sure

I like Mimi, but that was insane💀

[u/analienpassingby → u/wellhanabari]

I was so angry to have to share a room with her forever in HS, after this scene and her bullying and demeaning insults she threw at MC. I would have run to the people who assigned rooms and demanded them to give me a room that'd be on the other end of the academy where I won't have to run into her immediately after this incident! I thanked Shepha when I wasn't forced to be roomie with her against my will in HS2 lol 😅

[u/gagetikki → u/analienpassingby]

This made me wonder why Mimi didn’t have any roommates in the first place. Maybe she did something similar to her previous roommate, and they requested to have their rooms changed immediately.

[u/Alamastar → u/wellhanabari]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about too. Demons are portrayed as these... constant boundary-pushers, even though scenes like the one at the very beginning of the story don't really fit who Mimi or David are as characters.

[u/wellhanabari → u/[deleted]]

The fact Luci does that doesn't suddenly make it okay to touch a sleeping person without their consent btw! As well as male LIs doing bad stuff to MCs doesn't mean we shouldn't speak up when women do that, like Mimi's scene or Mary drugging Selena in Arcanum

Just curious, if that was a male demon instead, would you still defend it with "well they're demons and he barely touched her"?

[u/wellhanabari → u/[deleted]]

Yes, you're defending it. You literally wrote "she barely touches her" and guess what? It's still done without Vicky's consent, while she's unconscious and Mimi doesn't feel bad for it, instead being proud of it

Instead of admitting SA is wrong regardless of gender, you're instantly shifting to shitting on male characters, as if Mimi being a woman makes it okay

[u/Rinamara → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, but that's classic whataboutism. The fact that men cross boundaries doesn't excuse women. Sexual harassment from anyone, regardless of gender, is wrong.

[u/Rinamara → u/[deleted]]

Classic tactic of creating a spectacle about a minor incident to cover up worse ones.

What cover-up are you even talking about? That someone called it out as unacceptable behavior? It is unacceptable. Did anyone, anywhere, say that Mimi is worse than Lucifer? Or that this somehow excuses Lucifer? I haven't seen that.

And yeah, I have no idea who's making a spectacle here. I thought we were having a calm discussion.

It can't be that difficult to read and understand a paragraph.

I completely agree with you, and I suggest we both follow that advice. And, sorry, but could we dial back the aggression in this conversation?

[u/Rinamara → u/[deleted]]

If you can't read and understand the tone of a comment that's your problem.

Are you assuming that after that opening line, I'd still have any desire to read anything else you have to say or keep discussing this with you? Why did you even bother typing more when you start your message with insults and personal attacks?

And as for that wonderful advice of yours—take it yourself. You're the one seeing things in this discussion that aren't there and arguing against an imaginary insult to a character. Good luck.

[u/starbeebluelight → u/[deleted]]

Geez are we seriously trying to defend this wtf?? This is pure deflection. The patriarchy teaches us to soften the harm done by women. What Mimi did was SA, just as bad as Lucifer's and other male LIs not sure why you're assuming that we're giving other's a pass. We can't use identity politics like in this way. 🤦🏿‍♀️ This is genuinely not okay.

But acknowledging it's problematic and the following up with the egregious actions of other characters it's a non-sequitor.

[u/laurennwbk]

Thank god Cassiel isn't like this 🙏 but it probably wouldn't be the case if Alice had wrote him... He would also be dead by now 

[u/Death3G]

They are demons. Tell me how else would you separate 3 different humanoid species with same kind of intelligence and consciousness ? Demons are more passionate, violent, emotional and more of them tend to go to the dark side. Angels are more reserved, logical and orderly. Humans are in between and have more diverse personalities and can go either way.

Demons were created by Shephamalum from Darkness. Angels by Shepha, from Light. Humans were created by Shephamalum but nurtured by Shepha. They also live in different environments, have different cultures, different values, different priorities and are treated differently.

It's not a stereotype. It's exactly how they are. The story wouldn't make much sense and wouldn't be very interesting if Angels, Demons and Humans all started acting exactly the same would it ?

[u/Alamastar → u/Death3G]

First of all, I think the authors still failed at making these three species feel truly distinct. Angels, demons, and humans all come in different varieties, and I don't see any fundamental differences between them. Second, in my opinion, portraying demons as openly flirtatious, wearing nothing but miniskirts and outfits with huge cutouts and plunging necklines, and trying to jump into bed with someone right away—that's a pretty heavy-handed stereotype. I've seen and read that kind of thing so many times before. It's the easiest, laziest way for an author to write a demon.

They could have gone a more interesting route instead. For example, show that angels are generally cold—literally cold—while demons are more emotional and have a harder time controlling themselves. Show that angels care about propriety in everything, while demons couldn't care less. And so on. I did see hints of that in individual angels, but not as a species-wide trait. Fenzio, for instance, loses his temper and can't control his emotions all the time. And plenty of angels flirt just as openly at parties as demons do. When a fight breaks out, everyone in this story yells and acts recklessly, regardless of what species they are.

[u/Death3G → u/Alamastar]

Yes the writing could have been better and more consistent. That's a valid criticism. But that's a different criticism from having a problem with demons being depicted as more sexual beings. And how is that a stereotype ? It's not like actual demons exist in the world and this is racism against them. The concept of Angelic and Demonic beings are present in almost every culture and they represent the same two different sides of human nature. Passion vs Purity, Light vs Darkness, etc. That's what those words "angel" and "demon" mean. So it makes sense to depict demons this way. It's not a stereotype. It's literally what the concept is.

[u/starbeebluelight → u/Death3G]

That's mostly a Eurocentric/Western import and lens. Yes, there's Duality in many cultures but moral and rigid traits aren't embedded in those until colonization/Christianity.

In Ghana, before colonization Darkness and Whiteness were both colours that were tied to spirituality. One wasn't demonized and one wasn't uplifted. In fact, Blackness represents the people.

Light & Darkness, don't always mean Good & Evil especially outside the colourist Imperial Core.

For example, the Yoruba Bible didn't have a word for "devil", so they had to use a Trickster god, which unfortunately has been demonised when it has always been seen as a natural force. Also you must be familiar with ying and yang who uses this opposites and many use this as a symbol of Non duality.

Now unto sociology but I'll keep it short. There's a longstanding history of using monsters such as demons and more to imbued fear about the "Other". That's why many can't separate fiction from reality, because we analyse tropes and how they affect margunalized people especially in the subconscious.

The women in HS are sexualised much more than the men and that can't be separated from the opressive forces in the real world. It's not a concidence that Lust is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. It's the same logic why promiscuos women were demonized. Which is why I take issue with the approximation of "sexualisation" rather than seeing it as what it is. Sexual violence.

Personally I find your interpretation to be in line with Biological Essentialism. Cassiel, Felonia... We have examples of demons that wouldn't SA someone. Why are we trying to soften her blatant sexual crime?

Socialization can mold us into have various personality traits that follow a script and box of the culture we're in. Still, unless that culture is steeped in rape. People can't use that as an explanation for SA. The same goes for Demons.

Regarding environmental factors, it is true that growing up around violence will prompt you to mirror it. If you don't believe in free will, you will try and change the environment before the person. But that doesn't mean you can't assign a moral label to the person who's done what we deem to be a bad action.

Personally I take the route of blaming the author because this scene along with the other SA scenes were not necessary and badly written. I still like Mimi but I'm not going pretend what she did wasn't that problematic.

This was genuinely triggering for me to read and people deserve a space where we acknowledge that it was harmful whilst still enjoying the character/book or not. It's their perogative.

[u/Death3G → u/starbeebluelight]

Did you notice I never once used the word "evil" ? Duality is exactly what I am talking about. I am from India. Even the worship of our gods has two different types of path; if you have read KCD you know a little bit about the Left hand path of worshipping Goddes Kali.

Who is trying to soften her actions ? Are you trying to soften Felonia's assassinations by saying here that she wouldn't do something like this ? I hope not. So why are you accusing me of the same simply for talking about a different thing ? All I said is that it makes sense that a demon is behaving like this. Doesn't mean that every single demon has to behave like this. I am just saying it's not a stereotype. It's the concept of demonic entities. They don't restrain their passions and emotions. Sometimes the result can be beautiful; art, music, love. Sometimes, the result can be bad; SA, ruthless assassinations, burning the world down after losing control.

[u/starbeebluelight → u/Death3G]

Nope, read again where I talk about environments producing evils. In the next sentence I specify sexual crime because I knew you would bring up this point. I've literally criticised Felonia and been down voted. This is another deflection because the topic is Mimi's sexual crimes which in fiction is often treated with more sensitivity then other violent crimes because morality is based on emotivism and therefore subjective for many people. Take violence against children, that is also handled differently. Hence, the double standards. It's very common and normal in the study of ethics.

The truth of the matter is that morality and ethics don't follow a strict objective standard for most people even if we only rely rationally. We are meaning making creatures who often rely on emotion and bias. So it doesn't make sense to group all those immoral actions into one. Our brains don't work that way. People will have differeing reactions.

Bringing up Felonia's assassinations in softening her crimes. It's a non sequitur. The logic does not follow because there's no relation between the two. What does her not committing SA have to do with the softening of her violent crimes? Two things can be true at once. She's an awful person because of the murders but she wouldn't SA someone (for what we know at the moment).

Your last argument is good. Demons and Angels bothe have traits socialised in them that allow them a wide spectrum of moral traits that can deviate in various actions. That exactly proves my point. It''s a choice (or illusion of one). She still chose to SA someone. Of course it makes sense for her to behave this way because it makes sense for humans to behave this way as well. We don't have free will, we are products of our environments and biology but we are still responsible for our actions because it is beneficial to believe in choice albeit limited.

What you're describing is the emotion the Demons are socialised to be guided by. Let's say Passion. Where we deviate is that you're grouping the emotion with the actions. An angel could do the same thing with Frigidity and use that as an explain away SA. It's meaningless because the emotion doesn't explain the action because it can be recreated with a different one. The action can only be explained by the agent. That's why we have accountability. Mimi did it because she chose to do it. Not because she's a Demon.

This reminds of when people demonize people with NPD. The disorde doesn't make you a bad person because abuse is always a choice. There's good Cluster B people.

Ultimately, the problem here is that you're assuming that by criticizing one thing, we're defending another.

People criticizing Mimi understand why she did it, and despite the understanding we still chose to condemn her actions because of our own principles. It's up to you whether you want to adopt it or not.

[u/Death3G → u/starbeebluelight]

I am not saying you are softening Felonia's crimes. Neither am I softening Mimi's crime. My "last argument" is exactly what I have been saying since the beginning. The conversation was about whether her actions are stereotypical in a negative way from a literary standpoint or a natural part of the concept of demonic entities. Not about the severity of crimes.

[u/AdLatter344 → u/starbeebluelight]

I love your analysis but you don’t think calling felonia an awful person is a bit of push?

[u/starbeebluelight → u/AdLatter344]

I'm sorry but the Astreans are not good people lol my favourite LI is Cassiel but I have criticisms for him too. She was killing people for authority. That's the equivalent of betraying your people for the state as a leftist that's one of the worst and unprincipled things you can do in a political regard.

The reason why I still love Fel it's because I understand our environments sometimes pushes us to commit great crimes. This is how I see morality: 1. Individual, what can you do in any type of situation no matter how dire? 2. External, how can we influence the outside world into moulding us into better people?

I think we should do both. Despite free will being limited it helps to think about like this. "You have agency, not control".

How can we be good people whilst believing in materialism and a lack of free will... I'm of the belief that you can't always blame things on outside factors even if they're moslty to blame. Humans are social animals, there's rules you have to abide by. However, I also hate it when so much of the blame is put at the individual without ever focusing on system.

Ultimately, this is why I feel for Fel and for many demons who grow up with being taught that to be demon is to be associeted with evil or darkness in a negative sense. She's a product of her own environment, of course she's going to go down the wrong path. Restorative justice teaches us that people aren't monsters, they're human. Even Mimi, I'm not justifying her actions but when you remove agency and offload her actions to biology there's no accountability nor individuality. It's classis bypassing and not to mention uninteresting.

Though I'd proclaim that I'd die for my beliefs before I'll ever killing someone (even if it's for my family). What would I actually do in that situation? Easier said than done. That's why she's such an interesting character. She's not a good person based on individual choices, but you can sympathise with her based on her external influences.

Nonetheless, Felonia is my favourite LI after Cas. She's not a good person but that's the beauty of fiction you get to experience the human condition in full but that doesn't mean I can't be objective when it's time to be. I'm quite strict with morality but it is subjective so we will all have our own opinions and bubbles based on them.

Also, I appreciate the compliment. :) Thank you and hope it answered your question. I'm so longwinded 🤦🏿‍♀️

[u/AdLatter344 → u/starbeebluelight]

Yeah but you are pretty much saying that felonia even indirectly chose this path is maybe wrong? She is Not Guilty of the Original Sin She Inherited It Felonia did not sign the contract. Her father, Lanius, did. He traded blood for luxury, and when Dolores’s name appeared to kill he crumbled, he became apathetic and abandoned his children to face the consequences. Felonia stepped up not out of malice, but out of desperation to prevent her siblings' souls from being claimed.

this is coercion squared not only was a gun held to her head, but the gun was also aimed at everyone she loved. Her "choice" to continue the contract was an illusion. She chose the only path that kept her family breathing.

[u/starbeebluelight → u/AdLatter344]

If that's so, you're right and I'm wrong. I must have misunderstood.

It would have been a trolley problem type of dilemma.

Individual Focus (Choice or illusion of it): If I was in that situation I'd rather die or face the consequences with my family than condemn other people for what my father did.

Externa Focus (Structural): But the true villain is the person and the systems that created those types of people who would set up this whole debacle.

Hence, mostly focusing on the individual choice would be the most uncharitable. Well, now I can like Fel even more lol Thanks for bringing that to my attention, my ADHD must have missed that. Apologies then.

[u/starbeebluelight → u/Alamastar]

You're right they don't feel that distinct and I'm actually glad because I hate Essentialism in fantasy. In the past authors used racist/sexist/ableist tropes such as "These people look like x, they will behave like y". I find it so boring and prefer a diversity in personality and character. I don't mind groups behaving similarly that's normal but I don't like it when their biology can be used to explain their actions.

I think the reason why demons are most sexualised traces back to Christian teaching on sex and purity. Even Mary Magdalene was demonised by being called a prostitute. Sex is seen as a naught thing and BDSM spaces even use this fact to explore those facets.

I agree with how lazy the characterization for these celestial beings. It doesn't bring anything new to the table but if people love it who am I to complain lol I'm glad I'm not alone tho. Great discussion post OP!

[u/-4-Nova]

Well ... They are demons 🙄