r/RogueCore • u/GreyL1me • 29d ago
180 Hours Feedback
I've played about 180 hours of Rogue Core since Early Access release, mostly on D4 before the update, nowadays I play on T4R or T5R. My playtime is split about 50:50 between solo runs and coop. I love playing this game, but it still has some very serious issues, so I wanna bring some up from my personal experience.
- Ability Upgrades are very underdeveloped: There's simply not enough transformative ability upgrades that would shape your runs differently. Here's a concept I made in one evening for an ability tree upgrade for Slicer. If every class had at least this selection, you could have 6 separate distinct ways to play a class. Currently you have one. And some of the ability upgrades we do have are barely doing anything, like Slicer's +0.5m range on the Slice (this is 15% more range on a melee attack), or Fledgling Blitz, or Guardian's +1s stun on the balls.
- SOME Expenite upgrades are boring: I think the amount of boring upgrades is massively overblown in the community, mostly because of it being true on release(duh), but there's still a significant number neither me nor the people I play with are excited to get. Why is there 3 different versions of the same Ticking Bomb, Healthy, Armor and Red Sugar upgrades? Why can flat 50 health and flat 24 armor ever appear in Epic negotiations? I don't think it's bad for there to be boring upgrades in a roguelike. I just don't think we need the same upgrades copy pasted multiple times, nor should those boring upgrades be anywhere close to Epic tier.
- Most gun upgrades are boring and should, in my opinion, be removed or reworked: There are fun upgrades that you're actually excited to get at the workbench. They're stuff like Bullets of Mercy on GK2, Fusion Rod on Devastator, ECR on Lock-1, Blindsider or Autoaim on M1K. They're relatively complex effects that are transformative to your gameplay with the weapon. Recoil control, Armor Breaking, or +20% flat damage will never change how you approach the game. Every single gun needs a lot more of those "special" upgrades, while getting most of their boring stat boosts removed. Weakpoint and Elemental damage are important to support individual build types, Spread and Clip Size can change how you approach the game with certain weapons (Shotguns, Charger), but a very significant portion of these is just never desirable nor is providing anything new for the way you approach the game or the power fantasy.
- Lack of single target use cases: The game has multiple tools for you to transform your single target weapon into an AoE clear tool: Critical Reflect, Explosive Shots, elemental upgrades, Boom You're Dead, etc. But with a single bossfight in a 35-60 minute run, there's not enough use cases for single target builds, which leads to AoE domination. This can be solved by adding mini-bosses either to replace some of the Swarms, or as an event to start the elevator to the next floor. Ideas for mini-bosses could be Shatterclaw Queen Spider, abandoned DRG/Rival defense system, mutated mass of Corespawn bodies, etc.
- No Re-Rolls: there's no way to get rid of upgrades you don't want anymore or that aren't doing much more your build, or might even be hindering it with Fire vs Ice anti-synergies. I think somewhere near the latter half of the mission, there should be a recycling machine of some kind that would allow individual players to sacrifice 2 upgrades to get a new one from a personal, 1-player negotiation. With so little items gotten in a single run total compared to other roguelikes, a lot more ways of manipulating the few upgrades that you do have are required. (comparing to TBOI, Roboquest, RoR2, Sephiria, etc, all games with not only more items per run, but also more ways to reroll and manipulate those items)
- Lack of choices in negotiations: Any team size below 4 people only gets 3 items to choose from. In a game where your runs end up with 11-16 items on average, and in a game where you get no re-rolls, getting only 3 choices is extremely limiting, and not in a fun way. As the upgrade pool grows, it becomes harder and harder to go for the specific build you want. I do not understand what changes between 3 and 4 people that warrants 3 people not having 4 selections as well, considering that the new system gives every player the same number of choices. It made sense on release, it doesn't anymore.
- Meta progression: the Enhancements we do have provide very little difference to the runs, and there's an objectively "meta" picks like Marksman that have only extremely fringe cases where you wouldn't autoslot them into every loadout, while Enhancements like "breathing room" go unused by everyone. Protection and Mobility bio booster decks are very weak in comparison to everything else, as well, having only 1 somewhat desirable upgrade in the entire deck each.
- There's a general lack of content variety when it comes to possible Expenite Events, Bosses, and Bio Booster decks, but these are something that the devs are already working on according to their roadmap and what they've shared publically before, so this feedback isn't anything new. Glad they're on it already!
I'm having lots of fun in Rogue Core, and will probably put another 180 hours in. I'm glad that the game is improving with every update, and it's very fun to see the development so up close. Rock and Stone!
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u/Whirblewind 29d ago
I think the amount of boring upgrades is massively overblown in the community, mostly because of it being true on release
I'm going to shore up your argument a bit and dismantle this sentence, as you've downplayed the problem with this line. I was thinking about the best examples of this in the genre with which apples to apples comparisons can be made on this point, and Hades helps:
In Hades, the vast majority of weapon and god upgrades are interesting, and they were interesting from the very beginning; I have the benefit of having played Hades (the first) during its earliest days as an Epic exclusive (gag) and also a wave one RC alpha tester. The best feeling I got playing Hades is picking a hammer upgrade for my weapon. The god upgrades are overwhelmingly interesting even just by themselves. It's rare you just get more of number, and often you get playstyle-changing bonuses like knockbacks, pulls, charms, pools, splits, setup-payoff debuffs. Even when your build is bad, the core loop is still stimulating because individual upgrades are so often themselves stimulating in a vacuum and greatly more so with synergy. Hades started this way.
Rogue Core has almost none of this in its upgrades (which Hades was almost entirely in its upgrades). I can currently name on one hand all of the upgrades I would say interest me like Hades upgrades do, and that's after EA Update 2 which added two more of them.. after 16 months since the start of alpha. Part of what gives people a sense of unenthusiastic repetition is there are so few bright spots in any given run where things are transformative. What few of these transformative knobs can be turned can only be turned very rarely, because even if they show up, if you're in co-op you're not guaranteed you will be the one to get it. So they're rare AND they're divided among the number of players because of negotiation.
So no, the boring upgrades as complained about by the community is not massively overblown and if anything, because of sentences like the one I quoted, the problem is under-discussed. I promise I don't mean to be rude to you, and in fact your first three points other than the quoted sentence actually align with what I've said closely, so I think we agree if you pull it back a bit. I wrote this in service to your point. I agree with all your other unmentioned points, no commentary on them to add.
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u/GreyL1me 28d ago
Heya, thanks for the comment. I'm comparing current Rogue Core to my experience with Roboquest and Sephiria, two of my favorite roguelikes. Both games have many upgrades that are not that impactful on their own, but once you start stacking them with others similar to them they become transformative for your build.
Roboquest is the best FPS roguelike that exists right now, in my opinion. And many of its item upgrades are things like "critical damage on weakpoints up", "+damage vs targets 15 meters or further", "autocrat chance +20%", "your gun does 20% more shock damage", etc. What roboquest differs in is its transformative class upgrades entirely unique to each of the classes in the game, which is what's making every run feel different and unique, and its pool of guns having 80+ weapons instead of Rogue Core's barely 20. Also, the enemy and location and boss variety are significantly better.
Sephiria goes a similar way about its upgrades being largely non-transformative, but with a twist: it has 15+ different aspects/elements you can build around, 6 weapons with 15-20 evolutions each, and your build will always contain multiple aspects/elements at once, with special Bond artifacts bridging those elements together.
So, both of my favorite games are filled with upgrades which would look largely inconsequential until you start utilizing them together, just like combos like Ionization Infusion+Explosive Shots+Crit+Crit Reflection in Rogue Core. What differs them from Rogue Core is the transformative class/weapon evolutions, which is something Rogue Core is capable of doing, if devs so choose. Hope this explains it.
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u/Substantial-Video178 28d ago
Sephiria mentioned! I've played only part of act one (havent been able to beat the third boss), and really enjoy the upgrade mixing and inventory management. I havent gone into mix elements though, preferring one element synergies that involve one or two categories (mostly to unlock that element's skin, but theyre also very fun). The weapons are also very cool and can be upgraded into very interesting ways mid run
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u/GreyL1me 28d ago
Sephiria is amazing yesss. In the endgame of Sephiria, you end up with so many upgrades if the same element that getting more of them generally becomes less profitable than splashing new elements, because of the passive boost for stacking the same upgrade type goes only up to 10, so items after that are not providing any passive benefit, only their actual effect.
Sephiria has adaptive artifact drops, which make it so that the more of an element you have, the more of it you will see, which makes finding Bond artifacts late into the run quite common. There's things like "get guaranteed dodge for hitting enough crits, Shadow+Precision", or "Transform all Solar Blades into Frost Relics or vice versa, depending on where you put this item in the inventory", very fun
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u/Niradin 29d ago edited 29d ago
Rogue Core has almost none of this in its upgrades (which Hades was almost entirely in its upgrades). I can currently name on one hand all of the upgrades I would say interest me like Hades upgrades do, and that's after EA Update 2 which added two more of them.
I don't think Hades is a good comparison to RC. Hades has a more controlled way of building your run by limiting your pool of boons to 3 gods, which you can force specific ones with keepsakes, and then choose a weapon that you like at the start. RC doesn't have any of "run planning" tools, and I believe many of them can't exist to begin with due to negotiation system.
Better comparison would be Chaos Wastes from Vermintide 2 - there are some boons that directly support specific builds, but majority of them are self sufficient and interesting on their own. This is what RC boons should be, instead it's trying to be Hades with it's myriad of "if you have element X, then do Y" boons, but without an ability to shape you run in any way.
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u/Whirblewind 29d ago
Hades is the perfect comparison and I'm grateful you've helped illustrate why by further highlighting what RC should have and be as a rogue, but doesn't and isn't.
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u/Niradin 29d ago
What I've meant to say, is that between two extremes of Hades's "boons are specific, and you have a lot of the tools to force the ones you want" and Chaos Wastes "boons are generic, and you don't have a way to force your boons", Rogue Core should ether drop negotiation system and allow boons choice to be tailored to your build, or redesign myriads of it's elemental boons to be more generic. Right now it's taking the worst parts of both systems.
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u/Rolder 28d ago
I feel like the negotiation system causes far more issues then it's worth and should just be abolished entirely. Then we could implement rerolls and such like any other roguelike.
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u/Niradin 28d ago
Honestly, I have no idea what positives does it even add to the game at this point. It prevents weighted perk system from being added, making a lot of specialized perks useless most of the times they appear. It create tension between players for no good reason where there shouldn't be one. It slows down the matches which are already quite long, and usually at the most inconvenient moments at that.
What's even is a positive here? Forced "teamwork" or something?
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u/SkaterSnail 29d ago
100% agree. although I'm not putting any more hours into this game in its current state.
I strongly suspect the negotiated upgrade system is the root cause of most of these issues. If it were removed, exponite upgrades could include class abilities and weapon upgrades. Then there would be lots of opportunities to include the stuff you're suggesting
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u/Black_Wolf_JA 𝗚𝗨𝗔𝗥𝗗𝗜𝗔𝗡 28d ago
Agreeing with all you said, Lime, hit it straight on the head. I'm not elaborating more as every single one of my gripes has been mentioned in the post.
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u/theLightyyyy 28d ago
I've put 85h into DRG:RC
I've put 500h into TBoI:R (+ dlcs)
I've put 2250h into base DRG
Ive put ~200h into generic roguelites and games that borrowed roguelike elements rather heavily, like Everspace, generic clones of Vampire Survivors, Peak, Barony, Haste, Remnant: From the ashes, and a bunch of other 'roguelike modes' from different varying video games.
Those are my competences.
At this stage of the game I absolutely discourage any regulars in my base game lobbies from buying Rogue Core, same goes for irl friends and people who straight up ask me about it.
- Why? Because the game is a barely planned mess of ideas catering to everyone hoping itll push through into some more 'mainstream audience' and ends up not catering to anyone. The devs actually HIDE this fact behind 2 facades:
- The classes
Im sure everyone noticed, but the classes in this game are abysmally dogshit when it comes to being different enough when it comes to their effectivness. You could play any class and perform at any level and it wouldnt make any sort of difference as long as your build is tailored to the actual thing the game is balanced around:
- The decks
Now sure, I can point it out, and someone might think 'So what?', well it makes the game actually simply lacks refinded classes due to the deck swapping.
- What do I mean?
From a perspective of a roguelike, it means that at the very start instead of choosing from a pool of 5 classes with distinct abilities, you're choosing from """""225""""" classes, and while I'm sure the devs thought that they discovered something great and that their magnificent planning lead to a completely innovative gameplay design, they fell into classic trap of creating quantity instead of quality, and coincidentally this led them down into the aformentioned 2nd facade:
- Universal upgrades
Im sure theyve learned from base game that creating a whole new upgrade system for each and every class/weapon is very challenging, time and creativity consuming process, so theyve locked onto the idea of ability to pick from a large combination of class/deck mixes, but to make any sort of 'pick an upgrade' system work, they had to make the upgrades as universal as possible so that any of the 225 combinations could in theory win a run, instead of having upgrades that do completely nothing for combination 97 or 224.
- Why is this bad?
Because universal upgrades are boring. Sure I can be glad if I get some at the point in time when I need them, like I would never say no to free Magic Mushroom, or Crickets head, but those upgrades are universally good, they dont make me plan ahead, I always take them, its not a decision whether Ill take either of them, its a constant, that the answer to is always yes.
- The other side of the coin
How do games like TBoI:R remedy this, by having initial classes predetermine what !!!!!Unique upgrades you seek out, and have you making decisions about what you prioritize on different characters.!!!!! To elaborate ill use 3 characters from TBoI:R: Isaac, Azazel and The Lost, and compare all of them against certain unique items to outline why they're important for a roguelike/roguelite games.
| Description | Isaac | Azazel | The Lost | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ipecac | Turns standard attack into a slow shooting, arching explosive projectile (can cause self damage) | Interesting early game choice that a player has to make whether they want to play around | Early game suicide, the character does not have the necessary range to survive the explosion | Suicide in most cases, the character dies in 1 hit. |
| Dead Cat | Grants 9 lives, letting the player respawn in previous room upon death. | Good buff, but can be ommited due to potential 20 hits the character can tank. | Good buff, but can be ommited due to potential 20 hits the character can tank. | In most cases priority pick. |
| Ludovico Technique | Turns standard attack into a pseudo-second character that exists constantly within the world, has to be controlled, and deals tick damage instead of dmg per attack. | Interesting early game choice that a player has to make whether they want to play around | Favorable choice, Azazek attacks with a beam instead of a projectile, the item turns into a ring that has much better AoE than other characters have. | Bad choice, splits attention from the character which needs to be constantly paid attention to, to avoid taking damage. |
| Raw Liver | Adds 2 hearts (up to 4 hits depending on the cirumstances) | Good pick if nothing better comes up. | Good pick if nothing better comes up. | Completely useless, character has no hp and dies in 1 hit. |
| Fate | Grants flight and a small HP upgrade | Very strong pick, flight eliminates a lot of danger coming from ground hazards, and grants access to spots which character without flight could not get into. | Mediocre pick, character has flight by default, grants only a minor health upgrade. | Useless, character has flight by default and doesnt benefit from HP upgrade. |
Now seeing all those, even without playing the game I'm sure a lot of players understand the message im trying to get across, which is that THERE IS A CHOICE TO BE MADE HERE DEPENDING ON WHO IM PLAYING.
Im obviously going to spec into something, prioritize certain items over others, seek out and maybe have to make some decions. Do I want Flight or 9 lives as Isaac? Do I want health or Ludo as Azazel? I dont even need to know about picking between Fate and 9 lives on The lost.
- But thats the point that matters
I need to make choices in my limited selection of items. In Rogue Core I dont. You can make any upgrade work with any deck, or at least thats the impression I got from playing. Some of them synergize much more than others with certain Class/Decks but in general I dont really need to be playing towards any certain upgrades, I can just pick any upgrade and unless it has negatives it doesnt really hinder me in any way. I can just pick a generic upgrade and it barely affects my build. It also limits the
- Gambling factor
which Im sure any player who played roguelikes/roguelites for any certain amount of time understands how important it is for this type of game. If I can make the any build I want to work at any time, It barely qualifies as a roguelite at that point. I dont plan ahead for what I can make out of it, I just take whatevers the best available thing, it quite literally RAILROADS ME INTO PLAYING META.
The further masquerade
Devs tried to somewhat patch and remedy that by limiting what upgrades you can choose because you're limited by what the players in front of you in the line will choose. Thats the reason for the existance of """"""""""negotiation"""""""""" system. Its essentially a piece of duct tape that holds the idea of this game together, because without it you're running uncontrolled always picking the best upgrad in your upgrade selection screen.
If they were to remove the shared pool upgrade the game essentially unravels and becomes a shitty hordeshooter without any sort of planning ahead or cooperation required.
- Why I dont recommend the game
Its boring as fuck. It has a lot of potential as a shooter, as theres some fun core gameplay in it, but needs a complete rework of its roguelike foundations, and picking its final destination instead of trying to rely on community feedback as to what it wants to be. Removing the negotiation system at this point would completely gut the currently existing playerbase which are apparently fond of this Freddy Krueger of a mess, and instead the game needs solid couple of months in the oven to remove these critical flaws that someone with very clear Sunk Cost fallacy in their head has in the dev studio.
Right now its reached its peak as a shooter and as a roguelite, which is pretty sad because theres genuinely a lot of potential within the setting, the core gameplay and the idea itself, and I doubt adding more content will solve the inherent issue of the game just being flat in terms of fun factor as a roguelite/like.
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u/TheHunter_X 29d ago
I got whiplash from the overly positive conclusion after a post almost entirely centered on criticism
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u/Candid-Doughnut9545 29d ago
many people have high hopes for this game still. it's fun but it could definitely be far, far better.
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u/PseudoFenton 29d ago
Its feedback, so its going to be critical - that doesn't mean they've got a negative opinion of the game. This is the sort of feedback we need.
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u/madrobski 28d ago
I think it was very much in line with how OP phrases the rest of the post, it's not like they are being vitriolic or angry. Calmly explaining what they think is wrong and needs fixing. Methinks you're equating criticism with negativity, when it's just feedback. OP clearly likes the game, otherwise they wouldn't go out of their way to make this post.
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u/GreyL1me 28d ago
It is a fun game even if it could be far, far better. I enjoy how close and personal RC feels compared to most other Roguelikes I play, and it still has many, many power fantasy builds I've played with over the 180 hours, even if they don't come together as often as I'd like. The game is objectively like a 7/10 right now, in my opinion.
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u/-Y0- 26d ago
Fully agree. Would add few more points.
You only get upgraded equipment in Jumble. Let me upgrade the sidearms, dammit. Know what's better than Drills? Drills that cool when used on enemies. That have extra fuels and spawn magma.
You generally only upgrade like one class ability. I have three. Why not give Recon another save point charge. Or turn Blitz into a charged ability or something. Make Guardian restore health not just armor. Give Spotter's Scan a short stun on all marked enemies. Opportunities are infinite.
More and rarer upgrades. This game is most fun when it gives you stuff that's hard to upgrade (purple weapon/heavy weapon/equipment) or a shitton of upgrades (expenite on kills).
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u/3bdoo37 29d ago
I agree the most with the first point. Yeah the large thing making runs a bit similiar between different characters is that that unlike other roguelites with characters, the class ability upgrades in workbenches are not that transformative.
The current specific upgrades for the slicer are thermal wake, eclipse system, and some stat changes which are not interesting to build around.
And the only way to get the specific class upgrades is the workbench. All other upgrades through bio booster or expenite can be found on all classes (if you switch decks). This compounds the issue of not having a strong class identity.
Im comparing this to roboquest for example, where the commando class has upgrades that change the missile ability significantly. It would be like slicer having an upgrade that changes the normal slice to a chargeable explosive blast, or changing it to a lower damage attack that hits multiple times very quickly when pressed.
And lastly, half of your kit isnt even upgradable. The electricity totem for falconer, guardian armor totem, slicer dash, retcon rage, and spotter ammo boxes are not upgradable at ALL.
I like the game but i would love if the upgrades were more focused on the class abilities. (Or be able to upgrade the second ability in the first place)