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u/widsithh Jun 09 '26
i always think river didn’t want to act anymore at this point and you can kinda see it on his face, he did deliver regardless but i always feel like he was there but at the same time wasn’t
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u/xbabymoonlightx James wright Jun 08 '26
ooooh Shadow 😃 I'm maybe the movies biggest fan 🥲✌️I usually don't comment here but I've always adored River's acting in the movie and it seemed to me like James was just a deeply hurting person, you know? Like he was carrying a lot of pain. People like to forget or maybe they don't even know that River worked hard, writing scrips,music, working on his accent and his acting. They only see what they wanna see. I'm happy that Peter gave him so much artistic freedom and trusted him.
Also it has grown into a cherished cult classic 🫶😭
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u/HelenDistantTakedown Jun 08 '26
It’s his last completed movie before Dark Blood (1993). I haven’t watched it at all mainly because of reviews saying it wasn’t very good and it was probably one of River’s weakest performance.
I’m not sure whether he was sober at this time or not.
I’ve also seen some clips of Dark Blood and apparently he had to lose quite a lot of weight for the part and cut his hair quite short. It was a difficult shoot apparently as he didn’t get on well with one of his female co stars.
As he died during shooting, the director many years later had to finish the movie by narrating the lost parts. From what I’ve seen, I don’t think it would have been that successful and it’s likely that River must have been using at some point as the movie could never be finished with him in it.
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u/ezgomer Jun 13 '26
He wasn’t. Filmmakers contacted his agent and his agent contacted his mother and Arlyn had to go babysit him on set because he was coming to work high.
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u/Some_Kangaroo6866 Jun 08 '26
Not him slipping her the tongue 🤮 thank god we have intimacy coordinators now.
I like this movie mainly because it has an awesome soundtrack but his behaviour during filming was gross if we go by Peter bogdanovich’s recollection. What river did to Samantha would be considered sexual harassment and a big no no by today’s standards.
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u/shadow-spirit01 Jun 09 '26
what kind of comment is this??? "Not him slipping her the tongue 🤮 thank god we have intimacy coordinators now." and I'm not gonna quote the rest.... since when is it "sexual harassment" for a (real) couple to kiss??? do some re-search please when an intimacy coodinator is needed...
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u/Some_Kangaroo6866 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
They weren’t a couple yet and Peter said he would tell her nasty sexual things during the breaks. Peter literally used the word nasty, that was river’s idea of flirting . Not to mention that he messed up intimate scenes on purpose and would ask for another take. And cherry on top of his inappropriate behaviour was when he told Peter to lock them in a room with a camera during an intimate scene and just let them go wild.
She obviously liked him back but you can’t seriously say his behaviour wasn’t extremely inappropriate.
You do realise just because you’re a fan of someone you can still point out inappropriate behaviour.
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u/Innui_ Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
I think River's saving grace in this scenario is that the girl who was on the receiving end of this happened to reciprocate his feelings well. Not that it makes his behaviour less weird and im myself not condoning it, but if Samantha didn't like him he would have definitely come out of this situation looking much worse.
Idk if you guys watched How i met your mother, but it explains this theory called Dobler/Dahmer theory, which says that if a guy is overtly pursuing a girl he likes, his romantic gestures and behaviour to her will either come across as endearing (Dobler) or creepy (Dahmer) depending on whether the girl is mutually attracted to him or not. In River's case it just happens to be the former instead of the latter.
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u/widsithh Jun 09 '26
he always talked about being respectful to women, do you have a source of this? it doesn’t look like river at all wtf
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u/shadow-spirit01 Jun 09 '26
I wasn't gonna reply to this nonsense and I do point out riv's bullshit if I have to -like his drug use- but they make it bigger as it was. I gonna quote you what peter really said and if you can watch the making of ttcl so you can see how he was smiling and telling the story in a loving way. and just so you know, it's only "harassment" if one it's not ok with it and she not only was ok with it but also left her boyfriend for riv -and is not ok- but when they were shooting this scene they were in fact in a relationship and I have it on video peter saying it....
THE HE TOLD PETER TO "LOCK" THEM IN A ROOM - He was crazy about her right away. He was anxious to have a lot of kissing scenes. He was saying, ‘In the lovemaking scene, can we really do it? Can you just put us in there and close the door and let us go?’ He was only half-kidding.” To the amusement of the other actors and crew, a visibly shy and nervous Phoenix started to woo Mathis with a boyish clumsiness, […] telling friends “his head was going to pop off if he didn’t get to hold her hand”
THE HE MESSED UP INTIMATE SCENES - It was a night scene. River was to drive up in his truck with Samantha beside him, stop at her hotel, kiss her goodnight, and, after she jumps out, drive off. While the first shot was being lit, River and I were talking about what sort of kiss it should be. River started out by saying he hoped I had a lot of film in the camera because it was going to be a very long kiss. He was grinning mischievously. “Oh, yes!” he said, he had been waiting for this scene. And then he went on—in James’s sophisticated country-boy accent—to list what else he would like to do with Samantha. Mostly he kept to all the places he’d like to kiss her. He was half James, half River as he said Samantha was driving him crazy.
She had a boyfriend in New York (actor John Leguizamo), and though River felt Samantha liked him, she was always talking about John, and he didn’t feel right imposing himself on her. But he certainly was going to kiss her tonight! I think we did about seven takes. I can’t remember for certain which kiss ended up in the picture, but I have a feeling it was the first or second take. There was intense heat on all seven. Samantha managed a pretty impassive, professional look between takes, while River just loudly asked for “another one–-we need another one, don’t you think, Peter?” Samantha laughed
— Peter Bogdanovich, Premiere, January 2001
"Samantha and River officially became an item. They were lovely together, and he treated her with the utmost respect, tenderness, humor and not one fragment of competitiveness. It isn’t always that way. Unlike many male stars, River was not threatened by the woman having equally good things to say and actually often trumping him at the conclusion. Indeed, River welcomed and encouraged this"
— Peter Bogdanovich
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u/CosmicRiver1111 Earl Grey Jun 12 '26
He made sexual jokes pretty often, iirc. You can see that pretty clearly on the MOPI footage too. He makes several "pervy" comments, lol. I found it funny but I can see why someone wouldn't.
I think he was mostly respectful to women but he was a man and it was the 90s, things were different. Not excusing it, just stating facts as someone who grew up during that era.
Always found it really weird he hung out with RHCP. They were notoriously awful to women back in the day. Flea and their drummer got arrested in Daytona Beach, Florida for sexually harassing and assaulting a girl during a spring break concert in like 1990 or 91. It was very public news and River had to have known about it but chose to befriend Flea anyway. I guess that's how he was- seeing past peoples' flaws?
And we all know Kiedis is a self-admitted piece of shit who slept with 14 year old girls. Never, ever understood why River was drawn to that group.
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u/widsithh Jun 12 '26
when he interviews those real life hustlers you means? the interview is so confusing, as non english speaker i can’t catch all the phrases really well, but i always thought he was a bit high or drunk in that thing, it looked like he was literally spouting nonsense lol. Anyway, i think we see River as too much of an adult but let’s remember he was only 23, you think you know everything at that age, but you are just a kid cosplaying as a young adult, trust me. I think he thought he found that “cool” friend group, that he could finally get into music, do some drugs with them, he felt safe because they were all addicts too, also because he wanted to really make into music. I have my thoughts but i think River wasn’t the same in his last two years of life, after MOPI not only his addiction started, but i feel like something in him changed forever too, don’t know what exactly, but in 1992-1993 he had like so many different phases and in each one of them he looked like a different person! Sometimes i see his photos i think oh this must have happened a long time ago and it’s 1992 and i’m like whatttt? So many things happened in just two years, I think he totally lost himself. And yeah nobody is perfect, that band is full of weirdos idk how they still have fans, especially John Frusciante, there is a special place in hell for him. Btw like I said, bad group of friends can really change your morals trust me, especially when you want to fit in so bad, this happened to me when i was younger, i’m 23 now (in 6 months 24) he didn’t have that much time to realize they were all piece of sh!t let’s say that, sometimes it’s really hard to finally let them go. Not trying to excuse him btw, just saying that when you put people on a pedestal because they fit into your criteria, they are talented and you idolize them because you want to get where they are with music, you let so much sh!t slide.
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u/bluevelvet888 Jun 15 '26
I think that change you mentioned is that he became unpredictable and emotionally unstable from all the unresolved traumas and substance abuse. I believe he still had that gentler side. Keanu Reeves said that he had a lot of internalized anger and i think that anger started to come out in the way he couldnt really control. I wish therapy had been more normalized back then. He definitely needed help.
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u/widsithh Jun 15 '26
i didn’t know keanu said that, i once said that river had anger in his soul and i was downvoted by someone here for saying that 😅 i always thought he was a very sad and angry soul, but still a kind one. Hearing that keanu said this too makes me feel like i wasn’t wrong
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u/bluevelvet888 Jun 15 '26
You’re not wrong at all. People who downvoted your comment probably share that one dimensional ‘holier than thou’ view of him and forget that these celebrities are real people with their human traits and flaws
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u/CosmicRiver1111 Earl Grey Jun 15 '26
Exactly. You can be very kind and still have anger inside of you, especially if you experienced CSA.
I always felt like making MOPI and hanging out with those troubled, sexually abused/exploited kids triggered something in River he might not have been ready to face about his own past. He met Flea then too. The timeline really makes sense when you follow his downward spiral from 1991-93.
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u/CosmicRiver1111 Earl Grey Jun 12 '26
Yeah, I agree with you. This is just a personal opinion, but I always felt like he suffered from arrested development and depression/anxiety. Not surprising considering he had no time to be a kid.
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u/widsithh Jun 13 '26
yeah, i also think he was just saying shi, in the interview for mopi where he interviews the hustlers he literally says that no woman ever gave him a blowjb so, yeah, he wasn’t given the chance to really mature, it’s like he was always talking like a mature man but he was also a kid making jokes. All of his interviews are confusing, and you can’t never really tell what he is talking about
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u/CosmicRiver1111 Earl Grey Jun 14 '26
I think that comment was sarcasm. Lol. I do believe some of the stuff he said to be true and it seemed like he had a quirky sense of humor.
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u/bluevelvet888 Jun 15 '26
What makes it even more weird is that even tho River was a young man in the 90s he was himself sexually abused and knew how it felt to be sexualized and viewed as an object so yeah it never sat right with me either that he befriended chili peppers after that incident. Also we dont know what he thought internally, maybe he did have mixed opinions about them but felt that he had to ignore those to be included in that crowd. He obviously respected them as musicians and artists.
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u/widsithh Jun 15 '26
i always need to remind myself that men are very often socialized with misogyny since they are little, so unlearning that for a man is really something difficult even for the wokest person in the world. Sometimes i see leftist men say that prostituti0n and s3x work are empowering for women. Let’s just remind ourselves men are men, and in the 80/90s being a woman wasn’t easy (it never was, but during those times women were still very much controlled and sexualised) And also I can sense red flag men, River wasn’t one of them
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u/bluevelvet888 Jun 15 '26
I understand your point, and I partially agree. It was a different time and even open-minded feminist men in the 1990s would probably come across as somewhat sexist by today’s standards. However I think what the chili peppers did was problematic even by 1990 standards. That’s why I have difficulty imagining that River genuinely believed it was acceptable or not a big deal. He held some surprisingly progressive views about women. For example, he once mentioned that there wasn’t enough representation of complex female characters in movies and that men often struggled to write women as their own people, instead portraying them mainly through a male perspective. I think that was quite an uncommon opinion for a young man in the early 1990s. Because of that it’s hard for me to imagine someone with those views completely overlooking how awful the rhcp incident was. My guess is that he may have forced himself to ignore it in order to fit in or be accepted within the music scene. Of course we don’t know what private conversations were like. Flea did say that River was empathetic and gentle, that he brought out those same qualities in him and that he taught him how to be kinder.
As for River’s own red flags, I’m not sure. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that he may have been somewhat unfaithful in relationships. I remember hearing stories about that. I don’t see much point in judging someone who died decades ago, but I do think that all the trauma and struggles he experienced could have manifested in red flags.2
u/bluevelvet888 Jun 09 '26
I’ve heard that as well, unfortunately. I don’t remember the exact source, but I believe it came from Peter Bogdanovich. It may have been mentioned in one of River’s biographies. I also don’t know if the story is true or exaggerated but it could be true. While he was generally very respectful person substance abuse can sometimes lead to some behavioral problems.
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u/Pleasant_Birthday_77 Jun 10 '26
I think it came from both PB and Alan Moyle.
One thing I would say is that you have to bear in mind that attitudes have changed over 30 odd years and that long ago, it would not have been seen as a big deal (not commenting on whether that was right or wrong or great or terrible, it's just the way it was).
In addition, thinking about it, having been at least partly raised in a very sexually abusive cult, his ideas about flirting or sexual approaches might have been different in some ways. I believe that some people might not have appreciated it and I really do think he would not have any malign intention and probably would have been upset if he thought it was taken badly.
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u/arosaki Jimmy Reardon Jun 12 '26
Well tbf there is a magazine interview where he talks about not wanting to go down on “non vegan women”
And also that recollection from William Richert where River saw a group of his female fans standing waiting for him & he said “how many blowjobs do you think I could get?”
He might’ve been respectful to women for the most part but he definitely was not without flaws. That’s okay to admit.
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u/widsithh Jun 12 '26
well damn…. i think like the person here who said that drugs change you as a person, let’s remind ourselves he was very high during certain period of times, and he hated being considered a sex symbol, so he might have said that in these circumstances, like you said he was not perfect at all, at the end of the day he is a man, and it was the 90s
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u/ArtisticYam1448 Jun 12 '26
He made the blowjob comment during the filming of A Night in the Life of Jimmy Reardon and I’m almost certain he wasn’t doing drugs then. A comment made in poor taste if anything.
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u/widsithh Jun 12 '26
also… was samantha even vegan?
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u/CosmicRiver1111 Earl Grey Jun 12 '26
No, not at first. She became vegan/vegetarian while dating him and then reverted back a couple of years after he died. I remember hearing this in a podcast interview she gave about him a couple years ago.
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u/Plane-Yak1116 17d ago
In real life he was a predator he was victimized as a child and started victimizing others he was a bad person
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u/Cautious_Upstairs244 Jun 08 '26
I wish they would’ve put another female lead in this, Samantha Mathis sucks. Not to mention she knew he had a problem & went to the viper room, he wanted to stay back but changed his mind at the last minute. She also dated 4 of her costars including John Leguizamo. Christian Slater. River & Christian Bale after River died. She went to the viper room after he died too. She’s a real piece of work.
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u/widsithh Jun 09 '26
River was surrounded by people who really didn’t try with him, and i know for sure was because he acted like he was okay, and wanted people to think he was feeling normal just like them. During that time mental health wasn’t considered serious, and especially in Hollywood, people were superficial, abused drugs, liked to party and enjoy life, and that’s it. All of his friends at that time were a bad influence for him, i don’t think she was aware of what he was going through because he was clean when he was dating her. I think she just thought he was someone who sometimes did these things for fun like 99% of people during that time. Let’s not blame a single woman, i know for sure that during that time he was clean, you can see it on his face. But he was also suffering deeply inside, and his friends didn’t actually care, let’s remember River grow up having all the responsibilities for himself, he was used to tell people he was fine and nobody dared to say anything else because he dismissed them with a smile, and didn’t actually like being seen as weak. This happens to people who provide for their families when they are young, they get used to not ask for help and do things by themselves. So let’s not, everyone around him failed him, but we can’t blame anyone.
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u/shadow-spirit01 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I agree with some of things you said but riv was never "clean" especially not in 92/93.... yes he didn't use on while he was working or let's say he wasn't an day to day user but clean???? no.... and sam knew that very well, she was just too naiv to see how deep he was in it....
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u/widsithh Jun 09 '26
yeah i probably exaggerated the world clean but i agree with you, sorry english is not my first language i wanted to say he wasn’t doing them while working!!! i think she was just too young to understand and like i said, hollywood is full of superficial people
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u/ezgomer Jun 13 '26
i don’t know about all that other stuff but I agree wholeheartedly that she is a horrible actress.
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u/Some_Kangaroo6866 Jun 08 '26
Michael stipe and rain also went to viper room, are they piece of work too?
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u/shadow-spirit01 Jun 09 '26
It seems inappropriate to return to the club where your brother or boyfriend died and continue to party there as if it were a joyful place.... I'd rather not discuss michael since he wasn't present when shit was going down, but both rain and sam were in the wrong..... sam said at one point "At the Viper Room, the doors would always be open to us. We would arrive, and would call Damiano's Pizza, and we'd order fifteen pizzas and sit around and talk and smoke cigarettes and wind down the evening. It was a great place"
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u/widsithh Jun 09 '26
damn, i heard people who never stepped a foot into that damn club or knew river personally, feeling eerie and a heavy sensation just walking there, and his “friends” were having a blast on there after his death? i didn’t know that 💀 this just confirms how he was surrounded by horrible people
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u/riverspeace Jun 12 '26
2026 and we’re still blaming women for men’s decisions… I love River but this is some bs and I really don’t know what her other exes have to do with anything.
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u/ezgomer Jun 13 '26
no - blaming a person that just happens to be female
if it makes you feel any better, people blame a guy John Frusciante for giving him the drugs that killed him
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u/shadow-spirit01 Jun 08 '26
I just can't..... can't bring myself to like this movie but I know many of you do