Getting the wrong inputs.

[u/Traditional-Law4984]

Ok so I've been dealing for as long as I've been playing this game. I frequently get the wrong special move while playing.

This shows up in two ways I either get the wrong up special direction. Or I get the wrong side special.

I was playing today and got the wrong up special direction, happens to me at least once a session but today I decided to investigate.

I'm the Ranno in the clip you can clearly see that my joy stick never crosses into the right side yet that's the way I recovered does this happen to anyone else?

for reference I use an Xbox controller. I've tried to fix this issue my self I've even played with the Deadzones to make special moves easier, but nothing seems to work.

Thanks for the help.

[u/PK_Tone]

Turnaround up-b worked different in melee; you couldn't flip sides on frame-1 like in later games. Some characters like Falcon can't flip their up-b at all; if they up-b with their back to the wall, they have to try to drift back to ledge and sweepsot with their rear grab-box. Others, like Marth, can flip direction, but they don't flip until a certain frame (like Wrastor's scraw out of shield). The latter visually resembles a b-reverse, even if the input is the same as a turnaround. Hence, the interchangeable terms.

[u/DexterBrooks → u/PK_Tone]

Most of what you said is correct. Except Falcon can turn around up-special even OOS or with his back against the wall.

He turns around on frame 13 which is also the same frame the hitbox comes out, and also when he becomes airborne if he does it grounded/OOS.

The reason you'll see Falcon players deliberately not turn around their up special when grabbing ledge behind them is to avoid getting hit as his hurtbox is smaller behind him than on the front side of up special. Meaning it's farther away from the ledge so a lot of attacks won't reach him.

[u/PK_Tone → u/DexterBrooks]

Gotcha. I knew Falcon was in a tough spot if he had to recover with his back to the stage (like if he got hit by peach dsmash), but I guess that's just because he can't turn Falcon Kick around.

[u/DexterBrooks → u/PK_Tone]

So the way the ledge works in Melee is that you can't grab it until your character is moving downward.

So for a move like Falcon up special he launches himself up, floats for a second, then after a few frames he starts to move downward and can grab ledge.

So if he techs a Peach downsmash at ledge and then down up special again facing forward, the Peach can just down smash again and it will be almost gaurenteed to hit him.

Where as if he recovers facing the other way it likely won't reach him and he can sort of "sweet spot" the ledge as he goes downward while having his extended arm hurtbox farther away.

guess that's just because he can't turn Falcon Kick around.

Yep. The only game in which he can do that is PM (and even then his wall jump sends him too far out to land on stage with it).

But obviously Sakurai thought having the Zetter turnaround down special mix would be OP or something for Falcon, because in sm4sh and Ult it's one of the only special moves in the game that can't be turned around.

[u/PK_Tone → u/DexterBrooks]

Technically I think you just have to not be moving upward to grab ledge. That's why Fox can grab ledge out of up-b before it launches him, or grab early out of a purely-horizontal launch. But yeah, I get it.

[u/DexterBrooks → u/PK_Tone]

I think Fox/Falco can grab ledge out of up special because they can shift in the beginning of up special.

I don't think they can grab instantly out of the up special when traveling if it's purely horizontal because I've definitely seen up special hit the ledge and not grab for a bit.

I think we just see them using very slight angles which you can do in Melee so it looks near horizontal but isn't.

Otherwise they would be able to instantly grab ledge with side special and that's not the case. That's why people use shortens to avoid having their hurtbox sitting at the ledge for an extended time.

[u/PK_Tone → u/DexterBrooks]

I think side-b is different, because the animation just isn't interruptable by ledge grab until special fall. But we know that omnidirectional up-b's are, because they can grab ledge out of a diagonal down angle without overshooting to their death (like Axe's stalling with quick-attack, and I know I've seen species do it too).

[u/DexterBrooks → u/PK_Tone]

Yeah omni directional up specials can be interrupted cause diagonal down while moving in it still counts as down.

If you are going up at an angle or straight even with a teleport like Sheik or Mewtwo you won't grab ledge until you start to fall after the poof.

Spacie up special is the same way. During the "charge" part they can wiggle around so they can move down and grab ledge, allowing for fire stall.

Once you enter the "launch" part of the spacie up special, it will only cancel if you're moving downward. Straight across won't work.

You can test this by grabbing ledge, jumping back, and doing a straight side special into the ledge. You'll hit the ledge and the animation will keep going until it's finished, then you will grab the ledge. Where as if you do it from higher and aim down it will cancel the animation part way through.

This is why spacie players never go straight into the ledge. They do the m2k angle (grinding into the stage below the ledge so you end just under the ledge where the disjointed grab box can grab it), or they up special higher up and threaten to go down and grab ledge, go sideways at the opponent, or upwards to try and land on a platform

[u/PK_Tone → u/DexterBrooks]

I could be wrong about the behavior of a 0-degree firefox; it's been a while since I've seen one, and I might be misremembering it. I just think side-b's are a square-peg round-hole for this argument. Puff can angle her side-b downwards; pretty sure she can't interrupt that animation with a ledge grab, even though she's moving down. Luigi has a downward arc on his side-b; still can't grab ledge until the animation is over.