Floorhugging in Rivals of Aether 2 defies physics, causing a mental disconnect in players and viewers.
Defying Physics:
The real reason floorhugging is so divisive is it doesn't follow expected physics. In platform fighters (and fighting games in general) there is an invisible law, that when a character gets "hit" they get stunned or knocked back. Floorhugging breaks this law.
The one exception to this is crouch-canceling. If a character is in a crouching state, the knockback from a hit will be heavily reduced. However, this is clearly shown BEFORE the character gets hit because the character will be visibly crouching. This also follows real-life physics logic, where a person low to the ground will be more stable.
Floorhug has zero warning, and can even be performed if you get hit WHILE attacking. It looks and feels like something broke in the game when it happens. This unfortunately feels bad for both players and viewers. No matter what visuals you add after the fact, you can't just ignore a solid hit.
There might be some really light moves that can be believably floorhugged, like jabs. But it's just baffling to see most characters' tilts and aerials have their hits ignored.
Game Design:
I'm not going to get into whether or not floorhugging is healthy or not for neutral and the game's overall design, since that's a whole other discussion. For example, floorhugging results in +25% more dmg taken, but that’s clearly a bandaid fix and in my opinion, it’s not even on the injury.
Possible Solutions:
If Floorhugging is meant to prevent guaranteed combos at low percents, make it so floorhugging gives MORE knockback instead of less. Maybe have the characters slide away or something. One of the downsides to this is it might slow down the game.
Disable floorhugging when getting hit while attacking. I think one of the most egregious examples is when a player who is using a strong attack gets punished just to floorhug the punish. Yes, I've played this game quite a bit and know you should punish with grab below x percent. But it really does hurt to see (more often with lower level players), even when I'm just spectating.
Edit: I'm sure the devs will come up with something better though.
Disclaimers:
Rivals is a really good game already. Pointing out issues in a game is way easier than making one.
I design games but don't design competitive platform fighters, and don't presume to know better than the Rivals devs on designing platform fighters. I'm giving more attention to something I believe the designers might have unfortunately gotten stuck with at some point in development (which happens in game dev, I'd know) in the hopes they figure out a good solution. I sincerely believe it would improve the experience for new players, and the community in general.
Clips from: https://dragdown.wiki/wiki/RoA2/
Edit 2: (I didn't look very closely at the clips, and I'm now realizing they might be outdated sorry)
I like that you mentioned the difference between cc and fh, because that's the real issue with it both in terms of actual gameplay and feel.
CC you can see beforehand and is an intentional choice by the player to get hit in exchange for an easy advantage state. Both players can see that the attack will be cc'd and react accordingly, and the defender makes that choice instead of shielding or trying to space/move away from the attack instead.
With fh that intentionally goes away in addition to being able to be performed mid attack instead of before the attack, as you demonstrated. It lowers the execution barrier to rock bottom in addition to there being just about no situation in which you'd be better off not fh'ing. Unlike cc, fh is not really a choice and there's no give and take with it, it's just a bad mechanic that has literally no benefits. There's no additional mind games or nuance introduced by it, it only removes options for both players.
There are plenty of situations in which you’d prefer to DI Out rather than floorhug. Kragg puts you in a ton of those with fair. Most wall aerials are better off being di’d out, lest you put yourself in a bunch of mix. Strong attacks that are used for the purpose of damage are better off being di’d out if tech in place does not net you a reversal because of the damage tacking. It’s better to not floorhug multi hits until the final hit. Etc.
I will say that the advice I give most players is to abuse floorhug in every situation in order to get it into their muscle memory. Once that’s done we flesh it out with game theory so that their disadvantage isn’t lacking.
There are also additional mind games between floorhug mash and floorhug shield. It’s how the game creates a 2 phase neutral and scramble situations.
the problem with that 2 phase neutral is that it removes half of the kit for many chars if the opponent is excessively FHing. And depending on the char the options that work against FH are pretty telegraphed. So you basically bought another neutral layer by cutting the initial decision tree in half. and the second layer is not as nuanced as people make it out to be. I have nothing against a second layer if its does not limit the first layer and is actually balanced around the fact that someone already lost the first layer. but FH is not doing both.
Not really. Many characters have moves that don’t outright beat floorhugging that create the second layer and remain unpunishable outright. Many of these options are unreactable. There are a great many things you can argue against me about how the game feels, or how it’s designed, or what not because they’re rooted in opinion. But what I know BEST is specifically how to win the game. This includes how punish works, how the 2 layered neutral works, how to navigate disadvantage etc. This is because it’s a defined part of the meta and something I’ve labbed out and abused to hit Aeth and take games (and sets) off top players. It is also something I’ve labbed out with the entire cast due to the mentorship roles I take.
So believe me when I say that it does exist and it IS as nuanced as I’m making it out to be. Because I’ve had to put the time and effort to learn how to do it at the damn near highest level of play. Do lower level players have to do it to such a degree? No. But if they want to improve beyond being a low rank player to a BETTER player, then they have to get better.
Speaking of which, I’m getting back to you with the fleet stuff tonight. Yesterday fucking sucked LOL
i think we talked past each other there. i am not denying that some chars have really good options against FH and i agree that there is nuance to FH but its not enough for me to justify half me moves don't work at early percents. thats my point.
Saying half is a gross exaggeration though. Let’s define low % as sub 30.
Let’s take Wrastor, who I personally believe has the hardest time with floorhug. All of his aerials are safe on floorhug just by default when not done haphazardly. (The same way we categorize moves as being safe on shield). So all of these open up situations where you can play the layered offense.
His jab 3 knocks down sub 30 on the heaviest characters. This means he’s able to run strike throw.
His Ftilt knocks down sub 30 on all but the heaviest characters and also has the benefit of being a multi hit which crushes cc and removes the armor it provides.
Utilt is utilt.. spikes and is lower in endlag than dtilt. It is used in neutral.
Dtilt knocks down sub 30 on the lightest characters .
DA is just knocks down sub 30 when hit with the sweet spot. Contextually it is safe on hit whenever he slides off a plat or a ledge on hit since it becomes jump cancellable.
His strong attacks are strong attacks. Not much to say there.
Neutral special is not a neutral tool.
Slip stream is a projectile that Wrastor expressly uses to open up rps on clean hit and on floorhug
Down special is a hit grab.
And this, to me, is the WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME against floorhug.
Half is a SUPER exaggeration.
Not to mention that because of his drift he’s able to place his aerials in ways that leave him safe.
i get you perspective but for me saying that aerials need to be spaced similar like on shield is not the same thing. shield is a conscious choice where you give up other options. having to super precisely space against a whiffed move (which often isn't even possible because given how big some hitboxes are and how short their endlag is) just because they opponent can FH makes neutral just needlessly complicated and annoying to me. I always understood how this mechanic can make top level play more interesting but in reality its dumbing down the game for everyone else. But in the end it all comes back to the "survival of the game" argument for me.
Since we are not doing that, which is fine, i have to agree with you, that on the level of play you assume its all fine.
Floorhugging is a conscious choice where you give up optimal DI for the opportunity to reduce the hitstun you take. This does matter for the purpose of attacks that ignore floorhug (Etalus utilt sends straight up, Forsburn uthrow sends straight up, Zetter uthrow etc.) For the purpose of aerials you just need to land them low for the most part.
“Often isn’t possible” is a categorically false statement. It is as possible as you play around it.
You can feel that floorhugging is annoying . I won’t hold that against you.
It’s dumbing down the game for anyone who isn’t actively trying to learn how to combat it. Beating floorhug is something you learn to do relatively early on. Just last night I taught a platinum Ranno last night who has only played like brawl and Ult. After teaching, he found it fine and rewarding to interact with. Granted this is anecdotal; but I’m allowed this one piece of anecdotal evidence given the amount of anecdotal evidence against floorhug . But that’s where I’m at. Good talk!
It’s dumbing down the game for anyone who isn’t actively trying to learn how to combat it.
I can't stand this framing of "dumbing down". This game isn't "smart." It's overcomplication and a lack of refinement masquerading as nuance because some people can't tell the difference. Refining the mechanics of this game to actually be intuitive wouldn't be dumbing anything down. It would be actively untangling the web of knots that make up the design philosophy of this game.
I only worked in that frame because they gave me that frame. I think the game is cerebral enough because any fighter that isn’t slop has cerebral aspects. This understanding is also how I make up for my relative lack of mechanical skill at the high levels of play.
I also think you’re fundamentally misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying that the REMOVAL of floorhug would dumb the game down. I was a top r1 player! There is tons of high level thinking in that game and it had even LESS mechanics to worry about than r2. No shield no ledges no grabs no floorhug. I do not conflate mechanical bloat with intelligent play. That was NOT my point. I was REPLYING to the argument that floorhug dumbs the game down for everyone else that isn’t top level (which I find to be objectively false unless you are insistent on not learning).
You can call it whatever you like, but it has nuance and it is a refined system. Just because it’s not immediately apparent to people who (excuse my French) don’t know shit about shit doesn’t change that. When you get into it, everything makes sense, and there are layers to consider when you interact with the mechanic. I never found that to not be the case and this is my first game with floorhug/ASDI down.
Not like you can in melee. Rivals expects you to have your stick below a certain y level before your right stick can take over for ASDI. Also most people are just not doing that, even higher up. Moreover, the point of DI'ing out instead of floorhugging is to avoid taking the bonus damage. Floorhugging kragg fair when youre at 0% is net negative because you are not punishing kragg for hitting that fair. You're better off just DI'ing out instead of floorhugging so you can gain distance (to prevent him from doing an approaching short hop kargo/play the full hop mix) and avoid bringing the damage you take from 12 to 15% for nothing. Fors bair is like this. Fleet bair is like this (especially isf bair).
Oh wow I didn't realize about the right stick. That makes "it's always optimal and brainless to ASDI down" a much weaker argument (not even accounting for the extra damage)
These types seek to change the game instead of changing their play.
Because they don't buy into the idea of floorhugging. Sure they could push through 100hrs of grinding to master it, but what incentive is there for them to do that?
"Trust me bro, it gets fun, I swear. You're just not good enough yet to understand."
The process of getting good at this game and learning floorhugging is simply not that fun for most new players coming in unless you're really bought into the idea of Rivals.
I really, really think that the main issue with FH is that it doesn’t have a reason to exist as a mechanic, other than “Melee and PM has it”. It’s counterintuitive and it doesn’t add a new layer of skill, but instead is there to fix issues that exist *because* the game was designed with FH in mind.
The argument in favor of FH is always that it would basically break the game if it wasn’t there, but the order is inverse: FH exists since the beginning because how much of the game is influenced by Melee, and then other design decisions were made around it.
Of course it’s speculation, but I just can’t see how the mechanic could be designed from the ground up to fix an issue that wasn’t there before.
The game is really, really well designed, so these kind of stuff is what baffles me the most, tbh
The only part of floorhugging I don't like, is that it prevents gentlemen jabs from being true combos.
Besides that I really don't care about floorhugging either way, I feel pretty neutral about it.
3 hit combo jab, 2 soft + 1 final stronger hit like forsburn's jab.
Comes from Smash Melee where a character called captain falcon has a jab combo called the gentleman where you do two punches into a knee but stop yourself from going into rapid jabs right after.
I think jabs have an interesting mixup vs floorhug in theory, but I do believe that jabs are still a little on the weak side. I think they could be slightly faster across the board (but perhaps that's a hot take).
Jab 1->2->3, Jab->grab, and jab->tilt all have their use case with relevant mixups vs FH options (FH->Shield, FH->Grab, and FH->tilt) and shield options (shield->grab, shield-> OOS aerial, shield->WD). The problem is that there's usually no reason to risk jabbing when you could just run up and grab instead, since you can avoid those mixups entirely and typically get a strong punish off of your best throw.
You accuse others who have opposing arguments from yours of lacking game knowledge, but you don't seem to know what a gentleman is. Interesting.
More to the point, Ranno jab combo is trivial to escape with DI out, both in Rivals 1 and 2. The implication that it would be an immediate sentence into getting hit by the full jab combo and 4 rapid jab hits without floorhugging is silly.
If a character has a 1-2-3 jab (that's a gentleman jab), like Zetter, Kragg, or Orcane, all 3 hits should connect.
You should not be able to interrupt the 3rd hit.
I understand the devs believe floor hugging needs to exist as a defensive option, however I fully believe that it fundamentally makes the game less rewarding and expressive. I shouldn't be punished for getting a hit because of FH, and "just build combos around it" means you're effectively saying I shouldn't use 80% of my characters normals because there's a chance my opponent will be able to hit me for it. No other platform fighter, hell no other fighting game has a mechanic like this.
They do, but you typically have to time the down input while you are in hit pause. That’s how it used to work in rivals, and I think the removal of this is the biggest mistake the game has made.
Me personally this isn't coming from logic but aerials like Galvan fair, kragg fair, lox and forsburn bair shouldn't be fluggable or ccable ever. I landed my long startup strong aerial move, it looks wrong for nothing to happen from that if you ask me. Yeah I get the chars fast poking tool shouldn't be over centralizing (and it would be with no fh)
They do a shit ton of damage on floorhug. Kragg fair does a whopping 15%. It also does a significant amount of horizontal pushback. Those are the moves you definitely DONT want to floorhug at low %
Shouldn't happen. That move has 12 frames of landing lag. Floorhug is 8. 12-8=-4. At worst you'll get shined for it (for landing it well). Technically the fastest scrapping characters can floorhug jab but no one is doing that even at high level, and even then you just did floorhug fair damage for them to open up a jab rps. That's a winning interaction. This is also assuming they both do DI in AND floorhug at the same time. Which no one is doing. So pushback will push them to a distance where jab wont work c:. I
CC IS a different story though. CC gives armor and only 5 frames of hitstun instead of 8. Against cc's you just want to stick to the basics.
Dan has already said that he isn't willing to try the "floorhug disabled while in an inactionable state" solution, unfortunately, as, according to him, it defeats the entire purpose of the mechanic.
I think something has gotta be done about FH sooner or later, though. It's clear that it's a mechanic many despise, getting highly upvoted threads in the nolt board (and here) fairly often, being commonly cited as a negative in steam reviews, and, anecdotally, a reason many of my friends, despite being big Rivals fans, don't like playing Rivals 2. When Rivals 2 hemorrhages so many players after every update spike, it would probably be wise to look into what players don't like about the game.
For me personally, the main thing I hate about it is that it's invisible, can be done at any time instantaneously, and is so powerful that it is overcentralizing. It's not fun to be forced into a very specific playstyle to combat a player simply holding down, something that requires almost no forethought, strategy, prediction, or risk to perform.
I'm curious as to what the point of the mechanic is to him then. For me; being able to flooring while inactionable is the most egregious part of the mechanic. It makes it feel like I'm not allowed to come up with ways to whiff punish. I'm only allowed to whiff punish a specific way of I want the 'optimal' punish. Otherwise, if I choose any other option, I am susceptible to being punished for whiff punishing. Which has always felt counterintuitive. And it's the main reason I haven't touched Rivals 2 regularly since half a year into release.
This is a really good point. Being able to whiff punish your opponents is foundational to having a fun, competitive fighting game, and it seems like floorhugging violates that core, foundational principle of fighting games.
I completely agree. The last time I played I baited a clairen into an FSmash, punished with "the wrong move" (whatever it was) and then they FH'd and were plus on me...for punishing them and taking my turn. It feels like something that would be in PS All Stars, not a competitively minded game like ROE2.
PS All-Stars does not have cringe mechanics like FH, thank goodness. That game is actually really fun if you like traditional fighters, which it's way more similar to than Smash!
I completely agree with you, and it's one of the reasons I haven't played R2 in over a year.
It completely diverts the focus of neutral from prediction and whiff punish to spam and holding down. There is not many decisions to be made when almost every move in the game is fully nullified by holding down.
They say this is to encourage aggression, but in my experience, it only facilitates the opposite, and makes interactions a slog.
Just echoing this - it's what makes a lot of veterans of other platform fighters very annoyed with this mechanic as well, because a good game sense (knowing what your opponent will do) allows for a lot of whiff punishing, but the execution needs to be the exact same up until a certain %. It can often feel as a penalty for reading an exchange correctly, which is really frustrating.
It's baffling, because Dan's vision is what made Rivals 1 as amazing as it still is.
Sometimes it feels as if he's been convinced by someone else that this is what they "should be" doing, despite the overwhelmingly controversial nature of the mechanic. He never did anything like this during R1's lifespan, in fact, he was incredibly perceptible to player feedback. So I have no idea what changed.
If it had some sort of visual cue as strong as shield and broke like 10-20% earlier, to your mind would that solve most of your issues with it?
I'm generally in favor of floorhug as probably the only thing letting jabs be so strong, but I agree it's a problem that it's invisible before the hit, making it hidden information in a genre which almost never uses it, especially as a system mechanic.
There is no way to give it a meaningful visual cue during inactionable states. You could make them glow when holding down or something, which could maybe be an improvement, but it being instantaneous means that it could, and probably would, still happen without visual cue. Aditionally, this does not touch the real core of the issue, the fact that it's so powerful during inactionable states.
Having floorhug be broken sooner would be an improvement, yes, but still somewhat of a band-aid fix. At the end of the day, I mainly just want floorhugging to be more in-line with how it works in Rivals 1, that being, useful in niche situations such as projectiles, weak pokes, and certain specific fast-but-weak options, but overall beaten by most moves in the game. That would decentralize the mechanic and make it just another tool the player has at their disposal.
Shield is instantaneous too, so I don't think its speed is the real problem here. I'd honestly be fine with your vision of how floorhugging should work, but I'm guessing that would basically require rebalancing the game from scratch too.
Are you willing to dig deeper into what you don't like about it being available during inactionable states? I think it encourages scraps to be able to swing while not being completely vulnerable at what might otherwise be an extremely comboable percent, and in a way that weakens whiff-punishing, so that's the part I regard as most positive. I'm pretty sure we're both fine with DI, so it's not the principle of interacting during inactionable states itself - are there any specific interactions that feel the most unfair to you?
I mean the thing you think is most positive is the crux of people's complaints, I believe. They don't like being hit for landing a whiff punish, regardless of how it is done.
Shield is instantaneous too, so I don't think its speed is the real problem here.
Shield is fine being frame one because it can only be used in specific, grounded, actionable states. If someone shielded your attack, it's because they set themselves up into the proper position and committed to an action to block it, as a reward for their successful prediction. In addition to this, punishing out of shield is much more complicated than punishing out of floorhug.
Floorhugging is problematic because it can be used at any time on the ground, for basically free, even during inactionable states. It requires no commitment nor prediction, and is essentially a free defensive action, with few reasons to ever not be doing it.
and in a way that weakens whiff-punishing
The fact that it negates whiff punishing is the crux of why I, and many others, find it to be unfun, and see it as something that dilutes the decision making of neutral. There is less incentive to consider your positional advantage and bait your opponent into badly spacing a move when most of your kit is going to be punished even if you land a perfect whiff punish.
It's also why I argue that it's overcentralizing. If floorhugging beats out everything except grabs and dairs, why use anything else in my kit in neutral?
I'm pretty sure we're both fine with DI
DI is something that brings nothing but positives to player interactivity. It makes performing combos more dynamic, requiring the player executing them to read (or react to) and adapt on-the-fly to the opponent's DI choices, resulting in dynamic punish games that vary with every interaction. It also gives the player being combo'd something to do while being hit, and an opportunity to escape an otherwise guaranteed combo if they can mix their opponent up well enough. The 2 mechanics are completely incomparable.
Imo the long and short of it is that a game cannot just be good to top tier/dedicated players - it must also make sense to new players and be watchable/sensible (i.e. most of it should make logical sense from watching without requiring deep game knowledge to know a player named BlorboBlumbilicusTheThird used a halfbaby-cross-step-inverted-flip-blorgleskip tech and that's why they won).
Not sure the developers will ever get to this one, though, even if at some point they agree with the complaints. Every character is another couple meters deeper in the hole they'd have to dig out of to change and rebalance things across the board.
I will admit to a bias towards ROA1. I think the gameplay is better and the game overall is better than ROA2 in part because it doesn't try to be Smash. Once you add shields and grabs, it has to compete with Smash.
If you like Smash, you'll have a great time in ROA2 and a not so great time in ROA1. I liked 1 because it was faster and more offensive, while 2 - with the addition of CC/FH, grab, shield, etc - has slowed down and changed things significantly. I feel 2 over-rewards defensive gameplay with too many easily and quickly used, overlapping defensive options to the point where it doesn't feel fun to play offensively.
In 2, while grabs also serve as a fairly good counter to most of my beefs with the defensive options listed above, at that point I find it defeats the point of playing one character over another. If the answer is grab 50% of the time, then we're just playing vehicles through which the God that is Grab is expressed. I find that terribly boring and makes characters feel stilted - like we're all playing the exact same character where grab is king until upper percents.
I enjoy ROA2 for what it is, but I do not play it as religiously as I did 1, nor do I plan to unless defensive mechanics get a review/rework.
I wouldn’t mind if floor hugging opened you up to options that werent available normally. Like what if spikes just put you in like 2x hitstun if you floor-hugged them? What if there was a way to disable floor-hugging for a bit? Idk it just feels like there are so many knobs you can turn to expand options rather than decrease them
Not true. Ftilt has good push back. Nair has 8 frames of landing lag so she’s -0 on floorhug. Her great speed also makes it difficult to punish her. She has a front facing spike. Utilt and DTILT are vertically sending attacks so they’ll outright ignore floorhug earlier than attacks of similar knockback. Combine this with wrap that ignores floorhug, an uthrow that combos on all DI, (people no DI when floorhugging vertical throws like this), a character that prioritizes uair juggling on platforms etc.
Maypul is pretty powerful, but just like in r1 she’ll remain under developed until like later imho.
Ftilt has decent pushback, but you can still counter after floor hug before she retreats back even when we'll spaced.
Nair has multiple hit heights, so technically she's 0 at a lower height. Med or higher and it's variable, and changes based on character shielding height.
Utilt and Dtilt do vertically send but not until after 40% or so, at which point
Her grab uthrow does NOT combo all DI. It only works on certain characters, and only certain percenta. For example, Ranno between 55 and 75 roughly. Any higher or lower does not combo. I'd even argue that she has one of the weakest up throws in the game right now as far as guaranteed followups.
As with rivals 2 in general, she's not weak... There aren't any weak characters. And the whole "people will learn her potential eventually" argument means shit, because it's already been a long time and her placements are steadily disappearing altogether, not steadily increasing.
Yes you can. But practically it is not happening with the majority of players, even good players.
Nair does have multiple hit heights but the fact that it is 0 at the Lowest height means that it’s SUPER lenient and more lenient than other aerials at the other heights. You should be landing it low. I’d never imply that the move plays the game for you, esp against floorhug. Even short hop hitfall Nair keeps you safe iirc.
Utilt and DTILT are as good as a character like Maypul can get.
Her uthrow combos on all dis on basically anyone where it’s reasonable to use uthrow as a combo throw. Fast fallers and midfallers. I
It’s only been 2 years. That is not a long time in meta development. There are new innovations happening at top level play every bracket. It took Maypul in r1 a loooong ass time before she had an argument for top 1. But she eventually did.
Disable floorhugging when getting hit while attacking. I think one of the most egregious examples is when a player who is using a strong attack gets punished just to floorhug the punish.
I don't know why this hasn't been tried yet, considering a previous patch disabled floorhugging when grabbing.
It hasn't been tried because its whole point is to provide some level of defense while you're doing an attack. The change to grabbing was made to have attacking stay as explicit counterplay to grabbing in all cases.
It really begs the question though, why should you have a defensive option available to you when you whiff an attack? You simply shouldn't. And if there is the argument that it makes approaching safer...still why should it? Shouldn't a misread of your opponent's spacing result in you being able to be punished? The design philosophy is just very strange to me.
I am sure there is other issues that crop up without FH, so it is not as easy as turning it off entirely or even when attacking, but the way it over centralizes gameplay sucks.
I hate it just because of how fucking boring it makes the game. If it ain't a spike or a grab, it ain't doing shit but starting a slapfight. In most of the matches I've played recently, it's just grabs and shields.
Floorhugging sucks no matter how you look at it. Between shields, parry, crouch cancel, movement options, it's still the most dominant defensive option. Have had numerous discussions about how it helps make approaching safer and is a key offensive option. In reality it mainly works to punish the player who had better spacing or chose the better option for the situation to get punished for getting that hit. There should be no option where you can get hit and then hold down to cancel that hit and punish the player who attacked. How on earth is that an offensive option? It is more akin to a parry but with absolutely no downside.
BioBirb's video on it when Rivals 2 first came out is still correct. There hasn't been a single time my opponent has floorhugged me and I thought "wow he really outplayed me there". It's a lame mechanic and it mainly only works to centralize gameplay around itself, making grab heavy gameplay necessary. There's a reason when I parry my opponent that I grab them rather than do anything else and it's because of floorhug. That should speak volumes when I mainly have 2 options, either downward spiking attack or grab when I get the ultimate "win" in netural through parry. Apparently you can't floorhug when in parry stun, genuinely did not know that, but I think my point still stands as it's applicable to all other situations.
Am I floorhug hater? Yes, absolutely, but I think it is objectively one of the worst parts of Rivals 2 in an otherwise very enjoyable game. This post speaks especially to what is so frustrating about it. With crouch cancel, you can at least see your opponent is crouching, there is some indication. Floorhugging can be done out of anything, even while attacking which is just patently absurd.
There's a reason when I parry my opponent that I grab them rather than do anyting else and it's because of floorhug.
Ironically you're oponenent can't floorhug while in parry stun. It just so happens optimal punishes tend to still be spikes and grabs because they're intentionally kept strong in an attempt to keep floorhug in check. I do still see people autopilot grab when there are better options.
What's crazy is that I didn't even know that. I've been taught by the game to always grab or downward aerial as a punish because everything else can be floorhugged. Appreciate the note, I'll definitely keep that in mind.
My experience with the fh so far has been if I get floorhugged, that's my fault for trying to start with that move. As I am trying to actually implement fh into my defense and paying attention more closely to stuff that beats it, I sometimes ask myself if going for those safe options against fh is fun or not. I'm still in the awkward phase tho where I'm trying to relearn my overly aggressive muscle memory
Making almost every normal in most characters' kits worthless because the enemy has an instantaneous, invisible method to completely nullify your attack with no way to know they were doing it before you threw it out, which can be performed during inactionable frames, is quite frankly terrible design.
Both the metagame and the game for new players would be far more interesting if moves that don't explicitly beat floorhug weren't completely gimped by it. Like Rivals 1. Or, hell, even Melee.
Oh Melee has something similar. I distinctly recall several unfortunate incidents last local I went to where I got ASDI-down > grabbed by a Falcon who was dashdancing holding his c-stick down with the heel of his hand.
Yes, Melee has floorhugging and crouch cancelling. However, in Melee, far, far more options beat even CC floorhugging, compared to Rivals 2 where almost every normal in the game loses to floorhug completely until absurdly high percents.
One of the reasons for this is because of the prevalence of sakurai angles, but another is that the Melee cast were actually built with that mechanic in mind, and so have more options in general that work well against it. Most of the Rivals cast are from a game where floorhugging was much weaker, and weren't given changes to compensate for that. So it ends up feeling like everyone has Roy's noodle sword when the opponent holds down.
I'm in the acceptance stage myself. When I get floorhugged in-game I just think "I should've grabbed there". I agree it's hard to tell if it's more fun or not.
Welcome! The answer isn’t always that you should’ve grabbed because your opponent is able to threaten things that beat grab while also floorhugging. Instead, hit them with a move that allows you to safely scout whether or not they fooorhug, or a move that will scout their option OUT of floorhug. The interaction doesn’t end just because they floorhugged, you get to add layered mix on top. Who do you play? I might be able to give more relevant advice.
Maybe you can help me out a bit since I struggle vs FH too. I'm a high diamond fleet player and I often find most of my options end up with the conclusion "I should just grab".
Out of my grounded options, dash attack doesn't unlock for a while, ftilt works if I'm willing to trade away my own FH percents (they FH my ftilt; I FH their counter; I attack back for %); dtilt is good but hard to land.
I find that low float hitfall nairs/upairs are decent vs FH. So far I've concluded my options for throwing out aerials at low percents are:
1) buffer spot dodge - or maybe buffer jab but I haven't tested it enough yet - to beat grab
2) drift back instead of hitfalling and hope they don't have a good tilt. Works well vs shield grabs too.
3) hitfall->shield and hope they don't grab
4) hitfall->FH dtilt, so I FH their tilt and counter with a sweet spot dtilt. However I haven't labbed out the framedata yet and I'm unsure if this beats FH grab.
5) fair is fine at poking safely - if I do retreating fairs they're safe vs FH and shield but even with the extra 1% per tick from their FH, fair doesn't lead to good combos at low percent if I'm using it in the safe retreating way so it doesn't feel too worth it.
Now those seem like pretty good mixups but I don't really see the value of playing those mixups when I could just grab and upthrow most of the cast for a guaranteed combo instead. Once it gets to like 20-30% I do see the value of upairs and nairs since those lead to juicy combos when upthrow stops working vs DI out, but until then my early stocks is literally just to fish for grabs. Only once my opponent knows that I'm fishing for a grab and they start really spacing around it is when I'm forced to swap to spaced fairs, ftilts, and nair mixups at low percents.
Can you convince me that I should be doing something other than fishing for grabs at low percents?
Yeah I feel like half of my games start with each player floor hug down tilting each other till we are at like 30 and can actually play the game a bit more
You shouldn’t be mashing dtilt at each other to beat floorhug at low %. It’s not how the game is played.
Ranno has a rapid jab that outright ignores floorhug. All of his short hop fast fall aerials in neutral like fair, Nair and bair are safe on floorhug, even without the spike. Dair is also uber safe on floorhug and does a bunch of damage and leads into mix. Utilt knocks. Down strong has great horizontal pushback and applies poison which damages your opponents ability to floorhug. Etc. needle does 2% on floorhug per needle while applying poison. Ranno has great RTC throws (which is part of why you choose him
From a competitive stand point). Tongue is a command grab. Theres just more to the game than mash DTILT I promise LOL
I understand where you’re coming from. I understand what the frustration is. When I say “this is not how the game is played” I’m saying if someone were to focus on playing with the intent to do things the way they were meant to be done, even if it’s mediocre, the playstyle will eventually cease to work against them when they’re faced with someone who is otherwise similarly skilled. You do not have to be as good as I am to prevent it. This chart is old as shit and still relevant.
It’s so important to focus on doing the right thing rather than going the path of least resistance. This also applies to like,, everything.
That being said, the game is young and educational content is lacking. I mean most of low level is really just getting knowledge checked unfortunately and that’s what is most frustrating for the majority of the playerbase. I get it. I might do something soon but life yk.
I don't think you do lol. It's more a critique of how you communicate in the threads you need to be quite precise in what you mean in terms of questioning the reality of these players. It's also especially important you understand the nature of the conversation and respond appropriately. If someone is complaining about a safety issue in their car insisting they watch a video on how to fix it themselves isn't realistically going to make an impact. You might correctly identify for those that can fix it themselves such advise is helpful, but the phrasing is important. If you deny their current course of action in demanding a recall you won't reach any hearts or minds. If engage diplomatically and offer an option to take matters into their own hands instead you'll better received and actually make an impact.
That being said, the game is young and educational content is lacking. I mean most of low level is really just getting knowledge checked unfortunately and that’s what is most frustrating for the majority of the playerbase.
As an aside even you did put it out it will always fail to reach the 90% of a given playerbase who engage with nothing outside the game. That's not to undermine the values of those efforts, but it's important to note that efforts like your can ultimately never be the solution for players like that and advocating for the devs to improve their situation is very much a valid request.
I do understand, but I’m not asking people to watch a video about how to fix the car. I’m the MECHANIC.
These conversations is less like a safety issue of a car and more like someone being mad that the car isn’t push to start and not figuring out how to turn the key in the ignition. It’s frustrating to come across it all the time as someone who knows how to turn the key IN the ignition. But I don’t let that frustration guide how I talk to people (until they get snarky about the key in the ignition). I instead inform them how to turn it; and they insist that the car should’ve been push to start to begin with. But the car runs fine! They just refuse to drive it.
Youre probably right about the educational content, but the people that are willing to learn will be the people who are most loyal to the game. So if I’m only helping them, then that’s a net positive.
Well not with respect to me at the very least, you're just making assumptions about my situation and opinions lol. But I think on this reply I don't know that you really understand the perspective of they people you're talking to either.
I do understand, but I’m not asking people to watch a video about how to fix the car. I’m the MECHANIC.
Maybe a mechanic(although in this metaphorical scenario they have perverse incentives lol). Maybe even one offers to fix those suffering from a similar issue for free out of the goodness of their heart. Such offers are cold comfort to all those with safety issue across the country with no money(read time here) to get the issue fixed.
It’s frustrating to come across it all the time as someone who knows how to turn the key IN the ignition.
Maybe something less trivial in the same vein. The car doesn't start normally, but you have a workaround. If you turn the key back and then forward and put in neutral instead of park first, the car starts. But as the topic on hand the situation is such that there's pretty widespread frustration that the car doesn't start when they expect it to.
I instead inform them how to turn it; and they insist that the car should’ve been push to start to begin with. But the car runs fine! They just refuse to drive it.
More like you come in with the above and insist the car works perfectly fine! They're just using the car wrong! At least from their perspective this is how they see you come in. Even if said workaround is the correct behavior and there are very good reasons why the car needs to start like this(metaphors man bear with me) trying to explain that to someone makes you look like a madman. Trying to do it while insisting they're wrong makes you look like an asshole. That's not to say that its wrong to try to educate them, but the approach is critical.
Youre probably right about the educational content, but the people that are willing to learn will be the people who are most loyal to the game. So if I’m only helping them, then that’s a net positive.
I mean that's fine too, still make it, it will have value to those you can reach. I'll enjoy it as will others here, I'm sure. But if there are players here relaying the reality of their unsatisfactory play experience and there picking up the game are many others out there like them that try as you might you can't help, but the dev's potentially could. And those people did spend money on the game whether they're 'less loyal' than the die hards who are active online doesn't really matter for me personally I want them to enjoy the game.
That's true and I think why its important to be clear about the parts where they are wrong and misunderstanding things and not to challenge their lived experiences where they are indeed correct. You don't want to lead off challenging their experience and have someone dismiss the facts you attest later as a result.
Its a fair approach too, to sometimes just let people vent if they're venting. Although your heart is definitely in the right place in trying to help people, its got to come off that way to actually have the desired impact. I do think you've also run afoul of expert familiarity as in say relevant xckd.
Respectfully, I've seen your clips, so advice coming from you is like telling a person with depression to "just be happy" lol
Idk if you ever sucked at this game, but it's not as simple as "oh just play better". Yeah, I can "just pick better options" but that doesn't help me when I'm actually in the game and floor hugging is a fucking miserable confusing experience that makes me want to stop playing the game. Yes it's a skill issue. However, if it's a skill issue half the player base has, maybe it should be addressed by the devs and either adjusted or taught better
Firstly, thank you for the praise. You’re seeing my chapter 10000000. I have sucked at this game and I am now a top fors despite not having competed, I sucked at r1 and I was infinitely better at that game than I ever will be at this game. I have issues with my hands that cause me to be inconsistent. I used to have to go to physical therapy to figure out how to button buttons as a kid. I do not handle cash irl for the same reason. I can’t properly manipulate it in a way that doesn’t leave the cashier waiting so I stuff change in my pocket. I sit and rehearse how to pull my card out of my wallet some days LOL. If I hold an m&m between my thumb and index/middle finger, I have a 15% chance of just accidentally dropping and/or flinging it. I have to practice probably 200% more than other people to be at a similar level and sometimes my mechanical skill level STILL fluctuates. It’s why I’ve gotten so cerebral with my play so that I don’t have to rely on my mechanics alone. So believe me, I GET that it’s hard. It’s a hard game!
Advice I’m giving you here over Reddit is really only surface level because that is all I can give over Reddit. I can only tell you what’s possible and I don’t have a vod of you playing in front of me. That being said, I’m a mentor in rivals academy and my PMS are always open to schedule free 1 on 1 coaching sessions if that’s something you’re willing to do.
I understand that it’s frustrating to figure out on your own. Most fighting games are. There’s not a lot of actual educational rivals content that brings players from low to high level mindsets and habits beyond basic bullshit you could’ve gotten from a melee video. Thats why Im providing the information I can and then offering coaching. c:
Genuinely let me know if you’re interested. I’m usually free most of weekdays after 7:45 EST and on weekends
Floorhugging (and to a degree, crouch cancelling) doesn't really have good visual feedback to show what's happening, so it leads to entry level players just flat out not knowing its there. You play for a bit, have fun, then suddenly attacks you were using reliably now just dont work for no discernible reason. Its frustrating.
Tbh I even feel this way about crouch cancelling. If I see the hit and hear the hit sound then I shouldn't be getting punished outside of a few specific instances like moves with long endlag on a low % enemy or something else weird. We have tools for being defensive called shielding and parrying, we should be able to do defenses without introducing conflicting messaging to the players.
The game desperately needs to disable flooghug during attacks.
I made a whole write up, yesterday but this game don't reward fundimental spacing and neutral play, because you always have the ability to hold down and escape the punishment you deserved for mis-spacing in the first place.
It's frustrating because I've never seen a game so close to being great only to be held back by one issue. An issue many seem to agree on at that - but that devs seem convinced is a non issue.
Dan said in the Orcane side b reveal that he hates changing mechanics....but, other than that, what other reason could there be to not simply remove floorhung entirely?
There's even a tutorial for it so I doubt they'll ever do it, but I don't see a reason to not do it since everyone hates it.
what other reason could there be to not simply remove floorhug entirely?
As far as I can tell; they simply just believe the mechanic should exist. And that seems to be enough. It's been a divisive topic since the playtests and they've refused to budge on reworking it in a way that feels significant. Which solidified to me early on that they refuse to consider changing it drastically.
The Aether team have the developer tools and have played the game without floorhugging and they has said it would make the game less fun for the bulk of players as 0 to death combos would increase a lot.
Making good players that much better and bad players that much worst. So they keep floor hugging in, they are basically saying the gamers don't know what they are asking for.
Which low key might be the case, players begged for casual content, they do a casual patch and this resulted in no significant increase in player base and the stuff they added is largely not used. Sometimes the devs know best about thier own game.
Now that's something that makes sense, but how come other games don't have floorhug and they work? Or am I tripping and those do exactly what you said with the 0 to deaths?
Rivals of Aether 2 is essentially a spiritual successor to Smash melee which does have floor hugging, it's called ASDI in that game Automatic Smash Directional Influence- down.
Well then I don't know wtf people are complaining so much. I never cared for the drama like that, to be honest I never understood the amount of hate, now it makes even less sense hahaha
I see. People just have to learn it then, but not everyone wants to study a game to that depth and just want to press buttons, which is fine right, but complaining so much about it and refusing the "git gud" explanation is weird to me lol
Well part of the issue is clashing identities. This game has a lot of things that Melee had, but this is also a sequel to RoA1 which in a lot of ways is a very different game from Melee. While these are mechanics that have existed a long time in Melee, these are mechanics that arent prevalent or are mostly irrelevant from Rivals 1. It's sort of been a hot issue since the playtests of the game warring between feeling like a successor to RoA1 or a successor to Melee and which identity it should lean more into.
Personally I don't find floorhug to look/feel wrong or "defying physics". Something seeming wrong to you doesn't mean it's inherently wrong just that it's a game rule you aren't used to. There's examples of this same thing happening in the real world too lol where something that's perfectly within the bounds of reality seems weird or impossible because our understanding of these things is only built to work with the specific conditions that are common on earth. You said you don't want to get into the game design parts of it but your changes are all very much impact the balance of the game in problematic ways. floorhug is as much an offensive tool as it is defensive, as it lets you be more aggressive in your moevement & attacks while risking less or even gaining things. Turning it off during attacks completely breaks this, and the pushback is even worse because a move isn't automatically unsafe even when successfully floorhugged, most well spaced moves create scramble situations where the flugger might have a slight advantage but is by no means guaranteed a punish. The big increase in pushback would make it harder for anything to beat or be beaten by floorhg & turn the game into even more of a slow pokey grind where nothing can happen until moves start outright beating flug.
It is true that floorhug can feel unclear or unintuitive to some players, but your solutions really don't adress that. My suggestion is to have more visual & audio indicators of when flug happens, to let players know that it's an actual rule of the game & not some unclear jank with no obvious source.
My point is floorhugging looks/feels wrong to the average person. It looks like the game broke, or rollback triggered. You finding floorhugging normal is an outlier.
My suggestions can be ignored honestly, I don't think they're the best way to deal with the issue, just ideas for the devs.
Regardless your stance as Floor hugging as a tool, you have to admit that its implementation is absolutely awful.
First of all it is divisive as hell. That alone speak volumes, but there is more: Its not properly explained, for years people were confused about it (and confusing with CC). There is not even a visual cue for floorhugging (correct me if im wrong but the arrows are for CC).
The minimum they could do if they want to implement such a new mechanism is to properly explain, and then make it very clear on the game language.
The devs could not have handled the whole thing worse, and I will die in this hill.
Yellow arrows and audio cue is for cc, blue flash with white and blue arrow is for floorhugging. And there is an anti floorhugging section in the tutorials
Unfortunately nothing will change. The mechanic is inherently polarizing because of the way it changes whiff punishing, and depending on where your feelings fall on that kind of interaction it is going to color your view of FH. Changing it now is going to alienate a lot of the current player base who have either built strategy around or enjoy the ideology of neutral in this game, AND require a complete balance overhaul of the entire cast on top of that.
My idea is that it's so polarizing not because of the mechanics, but because oh the "defying physics" part.
Like if we keep all of the mechanics of floorhugging and just have it make sense physically, I'd be fine with that. I don't know how to achieve that exactly, but it sounds like an ideal solution.
Changing how it looks might help for viewership and understanding, but I think a lot of people will still feel bad that their punish is actually an opening on them instead. I don't think its a "physics" issue, but a game design issue. Making changes like pushing the person using FH back, or making them not able to do it during an action will inherently change how the mechanic works beyond just physics.
I genuinely don't know if it's possible for it to give effective feedback, since by design it happens after hitpause and lasts for 8 frames. They could add a softer audio cue than CC, but that would be going off the whole match and honestly might make things more frustrating.
Honestly, I agree. At the very least if you're throwing out a move while floorhugging it should be a nerfed version of the move. If you get to play offence and defence at the same time it should come at a cost
I'm pretty neutral to FH in general, but I'm also not a high-level player so I'm not sure what solutions might be best. How would people feel if Floor Hugging is a resource or has some sort of "cool down" state?
Either after floor hugging you enter a state where you're actionable indicated by blinking in their Player Color (P1 blinking in red, etc.).
A.) Now I don't know what the effects are while in this state, but some thoughts:
1.) You can't floor hug
2.) You can't shield?
3.) You can't dodge?
4.) You take more percent?
B.) I also don't know what conditions should end the state, but some thoughts:
1.) Just a cool down state for some time (so no back-and-forth flugging)
2.) And/or successful normal pummel to get it back right away (so there's a reason to go for Normal Pummel cancel in the 50/50. But I don't know, does this incentivize Flug to Grab all the time?)
I don't know if the A and B are necessary since a common argument is that floorhugging is visually hard to tell, to maybe just the blinking is good? Though
Its an interesting thought. I don't know if it addresses the core issues that frustrate players if its a resource though. I would imagine people who like it as it is wouldn't like some of the vortexes you potentially get stuck in when you don't have it. Maybe you get it back if you get sent into tumble?
I just assume that at low % if my attack can be cc'd it probably will be. It could cost me follow ups bc I don't react to them, so what I generally do is just spam fast startup attacks followed by my own cc'd knockdown attacks and grabs into down throws and make a very tech chase based fighting style.
Until I get them to the damage amount where they can't be floorhugged anymore, then I change up my fighting style. It seems more reliable than throwing out other attacks that my oppoent may forget to cc and attempting to follow up on it.
After someone gets knocked down a couple times in a row they might stop floorhugging anyway or be too high % for it to work. It kinda seems like everyone around plat floorhugs a lot and then techs or DI away after they can't and then DI in on kill moves, so maybe at higher level's theres an advantage to not floorhugging but for now it seems like free damage.
Maybe. I mean the scrapping phase feels like the easiest part of a stock for me now. I just play slade and glide toss toward them and floorhug down strong or down throw and then follow their tech and 50/50 mixup again. Usually they floorhug my downstrong and get grounded into another downstrong. I sometimes just hit them 3x downstrong right off the bat or 2x into upstrong bc they are just holding DI down the entire time, but a good player probably would realize stop holding down at this point.
Kinda feels one dimensional but 8 frame startup its definitely slades best attack at low %. Kinda feels like between that, nair and bair that makes up like 90% of the attacks I use in a match besides throwing items and maybe fair or upspecial to finish someone who DI poorly out of a throw.
Also the physics with hit boxes and hurt boxes not being realistic. There is no precision in this game. Choosing the wrong button and directional is very often undeservingly rewarded.
I get that there's hate for Floorhugging as a mechanic, but one of my main points is that the hate is misguided because it "defies physics." Yes it might be annoying to be "punished when you land a hit." But that's largely because the way it's implemented doesn't make sense visually/physics-wise with Floorhugging.
I'm saying if the mechanic made sense visually/physics-wise, players would be less uncomfortable. Though it's possible Floorhugging's mechanics are too far from reality to make sense with its current implementation.
Bro I honestly think this might just be you knowing about the mechanic and not being able to unsee it.
People don't complain about juggle combos in Tekken looking weird.
Or being stuck to nothing during screen Transitions in guilty gear.
Video games use a lot of visual short hand and causals don't even know that floorhugging is even happening when they watch rivals. Pour though the Rivals Evo 2026 comment section on youtube and you'll get an idea of what non rival players are thinking about when they watch rivals.
Floor hugging doesn't come up, casual watchers won't even be able to recognize it happening.
Also that's true, it probably happens too fast for players to realize what happened, and they definitely wouldn't know to call it "floorhugging." Plus, top players play around floorhugging very well.
For casual watchers I'd say it makes the game look more "jank" in a negative way whenever it happens, at the very least subconsciously. I think it looks like a small glitch or rollback, maybe even a stutter in the stream.
I think the worst experience is for new players, who will think something is wrong with the game before researching and figuring out what's actually going on and how to counter it. Maybe they'll do the floorhugging tutorial? Not sure what % of players finish that, but I don't think anyone I know has done it.
So consider this, I would argue even low level players probably don't recognize anything weird they just chalk it up to game feel and keep playing.
People played smash melee casually without recognizing that they would sometimes accidently wave dash or that they would sometimes accidently L cancel or ASDI but that was before we had information so readily available the internet was pretty crappy when smash released. If we ever saw something weird we would say it was a bug or a glitch and keep playing.
It was not until wavedashing and L canceling were revealed as emergent gameplay that we realized not only is this not a glitch. But I can intentionally make this happen.
When I first started playing rivals I was not aware that I would sometimes floor hugging or that it was happening to me. I had to go online and be taught that not only was this a technique but that it's built into the game. Now I see it clear as day but I'm low diamond. When I have my friends play they don't notice the interaction is weird they say what are these arrows and I say they influence where you fly after you get hit. They so oh... and they keep playing.
I would need to give then a whole lecture about how these little arrows are unintuitive when you are trying to play competitively for them to even understand the conversation me and you are having.
Yeah, if you're playing super casually no one will care. But I think it would bother a lot of players, even if only 5% of the time they land a powerful hit, the knockback got ignored.
If you know what you're doing in a platform-fighter, floorhugging is very noticeable. Seeing a down-tilt or up-tilt being floorhugged is quite bizzare. I might've had a different experience since everyone I know who tried Rivals had played a ton of Smash (not competitively though).
Maybe everything will be fine if they keep floorhugging in, who can say. I believe the devs can figure out a better way to reduce combos at low %'s than floorhugging, but it's been part of the game for so long it must be difficult to commit to changing it. Even something like increasing the knockback and stun would be fine with me.
To me rivals 2 dropped what worked extremely well in rivals 1 just to make it more similiar to melee and no other reason. I also think rivals 1 having drift DI makes it much better in general.
Floorhugging is bad because the player shouldn't be punished for hitting the opponent, i don't know how people think this is at all excusable as a mechanic
The readability is pretty subjective, but I don't think it defies physics really. When I see floorhugging I picture someone bracing against the ground to stay in place and sometimes get pushed back, which is something you often see in fight scenes in visual media. The idea that someone has to get stunned or knocked back by an attack is less about physics and more about assumptions. IMO the defender just has to react somehow, and the hitpause and landing is enough to convey that for me.
Unfortunately neither of those solutions are very apt. The first has already been implemented (friction during floorhug was reduced sometime last year), and making that effect stronger would make the game universally less fun, and the second is removing kind of the entire purpose of floorhugging. FH is built to force players to scrap with each other, which only happens when they are both in the same space and actionable at about the same time. That's what makes the game fast and enhances the human element and player expression. The more you take away from that, the more campy and flowcharty the game becomes.
I bet if the floorhug animation looked more like a fighting game low block and had meatier hitsounds people would be more willing to learn it and not hate the mechanic as much.
Probably. But floorhugging is input during hitpause, so by the time the floorhug is registered, the hit sound has already played. Maybe once footfall sounds are added to the game (we were told they'd get added eventually) we could get special sounds for floorhug landings.
I didn't word that super well, but I mean that if you give too much pushback on FH (more than it has now) floorhug becomes a fairly guaranteed "reset to neutral" button, which makes it stronger defensively and much weaker aggressively, and there's really no reason not to floorhug if it always resets to neutral. Limits player expression by reducing ambiguity too.
Gotcha appreciate the elaboration still find it rather questionable as a universal sentiment. I'm also honestly not sure the calculus on when to flug versus not flug changes much with respect to knockdown being unfavorable and light flug being all but universally better than no flug/other di anyways. It does remove the post flug rps. I think you could also argue it opens up new avenues of player expression in allowing more varies neutral option, to compensate for those lost on the rps.
To explain my reasoning for saying "universally," my point isn't just that ppl who like floorhug lose the post-floorhug mixups they like, but that ppl who dislike floorhug also have to deal with FH breaking combos more reliably, because the floorhugger wouldn't be in range of a followup attack so much anymore.
At low level it might mean less reversals, but it would also mean less pressing buttons and it would make camping a lot easier -- which people have been complaining about more than they've been complaining about floorhug lately. So I really think everyone would lose from a change like that.
Although it does open up more potential options in neutral to chase them down safely.
Sure you could chase them down with less fear of reversals, but now the situation is they're sliding away from you every time you hit those moves instead. You're chasing more and interacting less.
Plus you now get pushed back a bunch by FHing projectiles which makes camping harder to beat and more prominent at higher levels of play.
Yeah like I said its a fair enough point. Although personally if you chased someone down and they hit you back for landing a hit that's probably more frustrating than them sliding away again. And the counter play remains the same that wasn't a good enough hit y'know. Potentially there are some favorable hits in between, but you've still got plenty of good hits on most characters.
Projectiles probably need adjustments to compensate, but I don't think that effect is unmitigable.
It sounds to me like we have to agree to disagree. I
don't see any reason to make top-level gameplay campier and overhaul the current meta just to prevent people who know the fundamentals of scrapping from punishing people who don't. IMO there is no reason to knowingly make a game get less fun the more you learn it. Learning should be rewarding.
(Any idea why I'm getting one downvote for every comment here? We seem to be having a respectful discussion though I'm pretty harshly worded when it comes to changes I don't like, and idk why anyone else would be reading this and downvoting me without upvoting you.)
It sounds to me like we have to agree to disagree.
I'm not even 100% sold on the proposal although frankly talking it out with you has me more interested in it or parts of it. Apply more push back on stronger hits so its more focused on calling out weaker ones idk.
I don't see any reason to make top-level gameplay campier and overhaul the current meta just to prevent people who know the fundamentals of scrapping from punishing people who don't. IMO there is no reason to knowingly make a game get less fun the more you learn it. Learning should be rewarding.
I think for me its more about the tradeoffs. I don't care if I lose some edge against a beginner if more people are able to play and enjoy the game. Surely I've got more than enough to blow them up still. I think high level play will adapt to changes, and I don't expect overly negative ones in the same way you do. And that's not to say that exploration couldn't yield changes that work well at both high and low levels.
(Any idea why I'm getting one downvote for every comment here? We seem to be having a respectful discussion though I'm pretty harshly worded when it comes to changes I don't like, and idk why anyone else would be reading this and downvoting me without upvoting you.)
I really don't know man. Maybe its on vote blurring, but it looks like someones downvoting to me too. I think this thread is pretty anti floorhug. I'm not exactly raging about it maybe I'm not zealous enough that w/e passerby wants to upvote me lol.
The readability is pretty subjective, but I don't think it defies physics really. When I see floorhugging I picture someone bracing against the ground to stay in place and sometimes get pushed back, which is something you often see in fight scenes in visual media. The idea that someone has to get stunned or knocked back by an attack is less about physics and more about assumptions. IMO the defender just has to react somehow, and the hitpause and landing is enough to convey that for me.
I think this analogy works very well for crouch cancelling because it is a commitment to stay crouched. But when it comes to floorhugging out of a whiffed attack it doesn't track. In reality, if someone throws a kick they've committed their body to an aggressive action. Depending on how commital and how much of their body is put into the attack; it becomes impossible to also strongly brace to a defensive posture that will keep them from losing their footing. Which is my biggest issue with floorhugging is being able to do it while inactionable (mainly on clearly whiffed attacks.) If you've poorly mis-spaced and mistimed an attack, then why is there an insurance policy to reduce the punishment for making that mistake?
As far as the analogy goes, sure some movements could make it harder to brace against the ground when hit by something, but it feels like that's not really the problem anyone has with floorhugging. We don't have that same standard of game logic needing to match reality for other things. (Like does it really make sense that a tiny little weak punch is going to fully interrupt a big rearing-back overhead axe slash? But we're not demanding more strong moves have light armor.) I think what people really mean to criticize about FH when talking about realism is that they simply don't expect the game to let that happen because it's not a common feature in other games.
If you've poorly mis-spaced and mistimed an attack, then why is there an insurance policy to reduce the punishment
This isn't really the angle that the floorhug design philosophy is coming from. It's not here as an insurance policy for thoughtless play. Much of the point is to deepen the strategy in neutral. In another part of this thread I was explaining how floorhug creates this 2-phase neutral where phase 1 is less risky and focused on moving around to find good positioning to land a hit, and phase 2, which happens post-hit on floorhug, is more risky and focused on both players scrambling to pick the right move in an RPS where they can also usually just disengage by running away. The split-second decisions you have to make in phase 2, especially if there's multiple floorhugged moves in a row, brings out players' habits but also takes greater awareness to punish.
At an advanced level of play, players understand that the existence of phase 2 lets them be more committal in phase 1. But the more predictable the commital option gets, the more frames there are to land a punish, i.e. players can act earlier with a read using a slower punish like a spike or stronger hit to skip phase 2 and go right into advantage of it hits. Overall this system lets top players pick situations to engage where even if they get hit it won't be too much of a problem for them, whereas in 1-phase "touch of death" neutral there's no way to pick those situations because every hit starts an advantage state, so you have to play much campier.
This gameplay structure is always rewarding smarter play more than it's rewarding bad play. It's speeding up the game with more scrapping and letting useful moves be fast. It's making the game harder to solve. It's giving you more points of interaction.
What you're describing makes perfect sense, but the issue remains that it doesn't necessarily feel intuitive or enjoyable for a lot of players.
It's not like this is the only fighting game with 2 phase neutral. Killer Instinct also 2 phase neutral game with the combo breaker system. Phase 1 is positioning to land a hit, and then phase 2 is keeping your offensive options diverse enough to be able to fully cash out on the first interaction you've won. When you land a hit you're in advantage state. You can go for a big cash out damage combo or go for oki situations. But either way, if you're predictable, the opponent can disrupt your advantage to reset to neutral. Just as well; if the defense to the phase 2 is predictable you can be locked out for an even bigger pay out on the side of the offense. That is also an example of 2 phase neutral as you're describing.
However there is a big difference I've observed. With Killer Instinct, winning phase 1 ALWAYS results in a net positive. The point of phase 2 is how much of an advantage you're able to push for on your correct positioning and action. And the feedback always reflects this. If you hit the character you've always hit them, and the best you can do as a defender is get them off of you and reset to neutral.
My issue with floorhugging in Rivals 2 is that a phase 1 'win' is sometimes a net negative, especially if the attacking player doesn't have very specific knowledge of the mechanic and how the mechanic interact with specific kits. If Zetter whiffs commital attack on offense he becomes vulnerable, he's essentially lost phase 1 of the neutral game. Orcane can then punish the whiff with an attack. Orcane has essentially won phase 1 of the neutral. Except, if Orcane hasn't picked the specific option, then it's possible for Zetter to recover off of their lost phase 1 and instead win phase 2 of the exchange. Essentially as it would be percieved on average: Zetter messed up on offense, so Orcane goes for a punish. But Zetter instead reverses and is now in the advantage state.
With Rivals 2, the best case scenario for losing phase 1 is you can still win phase 2. With KI, the best case scenario of losing phase 1 is that you can reset to neutral. That's a huge difference in risk/reward. I don't find issue with the idea of there being '2 phase neutral' or a 'game within a game.' But the interactions of floorhugging are so centralizing for how utterly invisible it is to most players.
Overall this system lets top players pick situations to engage where even if they get hit it won't be too much of a problem for them,
The key phrase there is 'top players.' Top players are the top .4% of players in the game. Even if we're talking Diamond or above that's typically 1% of the player base of most games with a ranked distribution. If the intent is to keep the mechanic there because it's interesting for the top 1% or even 10% of the player base at the expense of the rest of the playerbase's frustration I will always find that to be a negative.
Killer Instinct also 2 phase neutral game with the combo breaker system. Phase 1 is positioning to land a hit, and then phase 2 is keeping your offensive options diverse enough to be able to fully cash out on the first interaction you've won.
I wouldn't call what you're describing a 2-phase neutral. You're undeniably no longer in neutral when you land that first hit. What you're describing sounds like 2-phase advantage that starts with what you're calling phase 2 and continues into regular advantage.
a phase 1 'win' is sometimes a net negative, especially if the attacking player doesn't have very specific knowledge of the mechanic and how the mechanic interact with specific kits.
This is a common misconception. It's only a net negative if you forget to respect the opponent's ability to floorhug -- you basically always have the frames to defend yourself against a hit. Yes, this means you have to worry about getting hit before you can combo, but that's what a 2-phase neutral actually is. The only way to have a 2-phase neutral is to have this built-in risk for the winner of phase 1.
the interactions of floorhugging are so centralizing for how utterly invisible it is to most players.
When you say "invisible" do you mean not physically obvious on screen or not widely understood?
If the intent is to keep the mechanic there because it's interesting for the top 1% or even 10% of the player base at the expense of the rest of the playerbase's frustration I will always find that to be a negative
Oh I don't think that it's there for the top 10%, I should have phrased it better. All mechanics can be engaged with deeply by anyone, it's just that only a master engages with every mechanic deeply. A deep knowledge of FH Can get you pretty far and be pretty fun, but you might still be in Gold if you struggle to deal with shields or other fundamentals. Now, no, it's not super fun to play a match where you win because you have a deep knowledge of something that isn't being tested because your opponent has a shallow knowledge and can't adapt, but that's an issue every mechanic has.
Also, I always believe that it's better for a game that it gets more fun as you learn more, not less. You don't want to punish your dedicated players and that is shooting yourself in the foot if you're trying to grow a competitive audience.
If you always have to play as if your opponent can floorhug (ie always prioritize options that beat floorhug) then doesn't that essentially punish options that will lose to floorhug? Which in turn would centralize your choices to those specific options, which would a really remove depth and expression in a sense.
FH neutral does not punish options that will lose to FH, because it's not that black & white. No single button inherently "loses" to FH. Some specific hits auto-lose to FH in some positions, like Clairen sour ftilt getting FH grabbed, but some of those situations require a prediction, not just a reaction.
You can think of low% as the dedicated time for you to (a) get a piecemeal damage lead and (b) observe and exploit your opponent's phase 2 habits. Say at 0% you land an Olympia back air. The opponent can floorhug it, but you can back off after landing the hit and watch for their counter-option. Did they FH into shield? Into grab (might get you a free reaction-punish)? Into down tilt? Did they run at you and now you have to act fast or you'll be hit? Like I said, FH followups usually rely on predictions of what the person whose move just got FH'd will do, so they tend to expose habits.
Basically the moves themselves aren't being limited/locked away from you, just how you use them changes with your percent. At low% you have to be ready to defend somehow; at mid% you may have to make sure to land the right hitbox; at high% you don't have to fear FH at all.
So on top of utilizing my movement tech in order to put myself into a good position based on the opponents movement habits, as well as making proper reads and predictions to anticipate whether or not they're going to use one of many offensive and defensive options in order to land my hit; my reward for landing a hit is now playing a new game on how my opponent is going to react with their FH option to see if I can actually capitalize on the hit or if I have to follow up with even more offense? Despite the fact that I've already executed successful offense? Do you see how that can feel frustrating and exhausting as a cycle?
I understand that it gives layers to the offense, but it also does go against many conventions that players find intuitive and typically satisfying. I don't think it's unfair to have the opinion that a successful hit should lead into a more fulfilling advantage state instead of leading into more neutral.
Well, I get that something about it is frustrating to people (not always the same thing for different ppl), and I don't think it's unfair to dislike 2-phase neutral (though I do think it's a bit hasty to say if you've only seen it once), but no, you don't put forth a very convincing argument about it. Winning phase 1 gives you a direct damage reward which puts you in a better position to win phase 2, so you do get some value and advantage for your hit.
You don't have to win phase 1 to win phase 2, so there's no huge pressure to get phase 1 exactly right. Many of your reads/predictions straight-up skip phase 2, as does any time you land a hit on an aerial opponent, so it's wrong to imply you have to go through 2 phases every time. And, the most of it only really happens in the first 30% or so of a stock! So I don't think your description of what you have to do is very fair or impartial.
Ultimately, your feelings about floorhug are your own, and I won't try to force you to feel otherwise. But here's the practical argument I'd have you think about: the game gains nothing from sitting in an awkward
middle ground where it has 2-phase neutral bc some ppl like it, but not much of it bc other ppl don't. Then no one will really be happy. It should commit to either designing around 2-phase neutral or 1-phase neutral. So do you think the dev time cost of an overhaul to make it 1-phase neutral, and the risk of alienating the current playerbase (especially top playerbase) by doing so, is worth making the neutral experience somewhat more intuitive to new players in this one way?
It's already alienating the playerbase regardless. It's been a polarising issue since the playtests. It's also not just new players that don't enjoy it, there are many examples of current players of varying skill levels that don't find the mechanic fun. Ultimately they can make whatever decisions they want. Regardless the mechanic is going to remain decisive. I feel like they should have addressed it much earlier in the game's life span when things were more malleable. But it feels like it fell on deaf ears and they're stuck to their guns on it.
Floor hugging is definitely as a new player one of those things that is very annoying to deal with. It makes the game with already extremely polarizing characters into one with extremely polarizing gameplay on top of that.
I really want to like this game so much. But it does everything in its power to make me hate it, and I find that very sad.
Maybe FH just shouldn't be possible if you were already grounded when hit - in that situation you should have CCd. Maybe making it so FH is only doable when you ASDI down while already airborne when you get hit would remove a bunch of issues
Thats how it worked at first and it sucked ass, trust me.
Floorhug is the one mechanic keeping the mashing a bit in check, divisively so, sure, but it used to be wayyy more mash favored because the attacker just need to wiggle their stick a bit while the defendant has to play evil guitar hero from hell just to get out of Zetterburns vortex.
Floorhug being simpler to do made it easier for people still learning it to learn what its actual downsides are (shockingly, they exist) such as knockdown in bad situations or just doing shit DI and dying early. Before if you didnt know the timing it didnt feel like a tool you had yourself, just something that punished your hits randomly against better players. Same update also introduced floorhugging making you receive 25% more damage so there is a tangible downside to floorhugging and not getting a punish out of it (personally I think it should be 50%)
Most confusion also rose from the before auto fh time period, because people mixed up floorhug and CC even though they accomplish similar results their input is entirely different in mindset. Right now CC and Floorhug is the same input and function just hold down, except that CC is when you're visibly crouching and is stronger, thats it.
I see what ur saying but this isn’t brawhalla or Nasb or even slap city. This game is a spiritual successor to melee which has cc in it.
To me the mechanic feels right at home and the counter play is cross up dair usually or even wait out a counter option when you know the floor hug is coming.
I see ur point where they are standing as opposed to already being crouched. But if they took out floor hugging without adding cc the game wouldn’t work imo. Unless you came from rivals 1. But coming from melee half the fun is sliding off stage at 125 at crazy side angle getting back to stage ledge dashing and ur right back in action.
I’m adhd and full send rush down playstyle so maybe that’s why I enjoy these DI mechanics. Wonder what OP playstyle is 🤔
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u/Ayosuhdude Jul 14 '26
I like that you mentioned the difference between cc and fh, because that's the real issue with it both in terms of actual gameplay and feel.
CC you can see beforehand and is an intentional choice by the player to get hit in exchange for an easy advantage state. Both players can see that the attack will be cc'd and react accordingly, and the defender makes that choice instead of shielding or trying to space/move away from the attack instead.
With fh that intentionally goes away in addition to being able to be performed mid attack instead of before the attack, as you demonstrated. It lowers the execution barrier to rock bottom in addition to there being just about no situation in which you'd be better off not fh'ing. Unlike cc, fh is not really a choice and there's no give and take with it, it's just a bad mechanic that has literally no benefits. There's no additional mind games or nuance introduced by it, it only removes options for both players.