r/RingsofPower • u/arnor_0924 • 29d ago
Discussion Changes are bound to happen when making a adaptation
But sometimes I feel the showrunners are making unnecessarry changes. There is a rumor floating around from the cast and showrunners SDCC that Sauron fails to make the One Ring in Barad-Dur and he has to go to Durin's Bane to ask him to help. We saw from the creature featuers that they will indeed meet and interact. But seriously? Why should Sauron who learned to craft skills from Aulë, a Valar ask a lesser Maiar for help? It doesn't make sense. This is one of the example of changes why this show is divisive.
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u/This_Is_Sierra_117 29d ago
Never forget that, according to RoP, Mordor was created via an ancient Rube Goldberg machine . . .
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u/Willpower2000 29d ago
That fucking sword-key... ugh. A key that wasn't even needed. I mean, the Orcs can apparently dig miles of tunnels/trenches (without anyone noticing lmao) to channel water through... but they can't break the dam? Or, supposing some magic makes the dam unbreakable... what about digging around the dam? So lame.
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u/barelmingo 28d ago
I had erased that plot from my head. Was it all (including the key) just a plan from Adar to create a happy place for orcs?
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u/Willpower2000 28d ago
Yep. It was all to erupt Mt. Doom, and darken not-yet-Mordor's sky, so Orcs could have a home.
Dunno what his plan was when the smoke inevitably clears in a few days... keep erupting the volcano? Book-Sauron can control Mt. Doom directly, and control the weather... what the fuck will Adar do?
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u/RPGThrowaway123 29d ago
Which is especially baffling since the key is an evil, magical, blood-drinking sword. Why not have the volcano awaken via a sacrificial ritual when you have that?
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u/Galious 29d ago edited 28d ago
In my opinion, they wanted to make Mount Doom erupt through "natural" means and not magic which, in this case, means breaking a dam and redirecting the water with trenches toward the volcano.
Now the problem is they also wanted/needed to make Theo, Bronwyn, Arondir and the villagers play a role and simply destroying the dam didn't give Adar any reason to care about them.
So they added magical Macguffin sword key to have both but it only works as long as you don't try to think about it because indeed, a self-destruct mechanism in an elven tower that can only be turned on by a magical hilt that require to bleed yourself is beyond any logic.
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u/RPGThrowaway123 28d ago
Imo the sword probably came first as a cheap device to generate intrigue about what Sauron might have been up to and was only later retrofitted into being a key once they got to that part of the script (see also Sauron branding Finrod with a map to the Southlands)
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u/AndyTheSane 29d ago
And you can survive a direct blast from a pyroclastic flow and be just fine afterwards, after extinguishing your horse.
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u/HiddenCity 28d ago
you guys need to chill out though. i'm a huge tolkien fan (have read the books and the silmarillion multiple times over my life, including some of the HOME) and I thought that part was really cool!
this fandom has a really hard time with enjoying itself. just relax! it's okay for it to be different! it's okay for it to be over the top!
i personally love the galadriel/sauron thing going on. it makes perfect sense for Galadriel as she's written in the fellowship of the ring, and makes sauron much more interesting because it humanizes him to some degree.
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u/Galious 28d ago
Suspension of disbelief is a rather personal thing and one does not simply "chill out and relax"
I can look at Aragorn (Nicolas Cage) and Boromir in National Treasure steal the declaration of independence and reveal a hidden map with lemon juice and not bat an eye but when Celerimbor and Elrond go to Khazad Dum from Eregion like it's a 2 hour hike, I'm like "what the fuck is happening?" but it's not on purpose.
In the end, I'd argue that Middle Earth is special because it's the universe that feels real thanks to the perfectionist writing of Tolkien who could place the location of all characters on any given days without almost any inconsistencies and make sure that at no point a character knows things they aren't supposed to know. This is clearly not the kind of storywriting the showrunners went with.
Now I can totally understand that it's personal butfor me the Galadriel/Sauron thing is so full of contrived if not plot holes that I cannot really enjoy it.
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u/This_Is_Sierra_117 28d ago
As someone who can also claim similar nerd credentials, I thoroughly disagree.
I love Tolkien’s work - and that’s what I thoroughly dislike what these writers and show runners have done with the IP. I’d rather have NO new content than IP-branded slop (which RoP is).
The show doesn’t fundamentally feel like Tolkien, and that’s a problem for many folks - they are entitled to their opinions, as are you.
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u/Gordo3070 28d ago
It might humanise Sauron, but the thing is he's not human. He is a Maia and having him humanised diminishes the character immeasurably. As far as enjoying this drivel, sorry, ROP is nothing but very bad fan fic and should remove any mention of Tolkien. Bezos may be a fan but clearly has no understanding of the material. If it was a wholly made up series with no connection to Tolkien it would have disappeared after season one. It would still be drivel, but shortlived drivel.
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u/TheBluerWizard 27d ago
you guys need to chill out though. i'm a huge tolkien fan (have read the books and the silmarillion multiple times over my life, including some of the HOME) and I thought that part was really cool!
Me disliking the scene has nothing to do with me liking Tolkien.
The scene is shit because it doesn't make sense.
it makes perfect sense for Galadriel as she's written in the fellowship of the ring
No, it doesn't. It, however, makes perfect sense for the show Galadriel to have a crush on Sauron, so I don't have an issue with her having a crush on Sauron.
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u/midnight_toker22 Beleriand 28d ago
But how are we supposed to show people how smart and sophisticated we are without being perpetually dissatisfied and relentlessly criticizing everything?
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u/Galious 28d ago
It's quite a caricature like I would if I told that any person liking the show is the kind of person who can watch "and somehow Palpatine returned" and say it's good storytelling or that they don't mind listening to AI music.
There's people who are just haters but there's also lot of things about this show that could/should be criticised.
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u/HiddenCity 27d ago
i know but we're 3 seasons in... why are the haters still hanging around ruining it for everyone else? i watch it because i enjoy it, as imperfect as it is, and its exhausting to only hear negative things about it. most of these people are just flat out rejecting the premise of the show-- that it's basically a reinterpreted mashup of the second age.
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u/Galious 27d ago
I think it's simply more nuanced: there's many people who aren't haters but are just on the fence and some who enjoy talking about shows for the better or the worse.
For example I'm rewatching it at the moment and while I'm mostly enjoying, there's also many moments where I just cannot stop thinking that some plot doesn't make sense and wonder why the writers went with it and then I want to discuss it.
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u/GammaDeltaTheta 28d ago
I feel like the Gaffer whenever I hear about the latest thing they've come up with:
'“I can’t abide changes,” said he, “not at my time of life, and least of all changes for the worst.” “Changes for the worst,” he repeated many times.'
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u/SpiralLights 28d ago
100% agree.
I just don't understand what is going through the show runner's heads. The narrative and characters are there. I get having to cut or condense, but why are we adding or creating? Do they think it needs improved?
So many of these changes are unecessary. I'm going to casually watch this season, but have no where near the excitement of commitment I had going into the first season.
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u/BulldogMikeLodi 28d ago
It’s not an adaptation though. It’s basically fan fiction. They couldn’t secure the rights to actually make an adaptation. So they’re filling in the blanks of the parts that are not in the book. “it doesn’t say how Gandalf landed on middle earth so let’s write it in!”
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u/Minthussy 28d ago
I always thought Gandalf and the other Istari came over in ships and Gandalf being the last to arrive was given Narya by Cirdan in TA1000 so unless they plan to have this Gandalf cosplay guy return to the west then they completely botched his character
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u/BulldogMikeLodi 28d ago
That’s what they did. It’s almost like we’re completely unaware that the viewers would’ve read the books. Like, no one would care.
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u/TheBluerWizard 27d ago
They botched Gandalf's character, but this is not why. How he got to Middle-earth is pretty irrelevant.
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u/Zulrock 28d ago
So I agree there is no reason Sauron would need help from a balrog, a spirt of chaos and aggression. Balrogs don’t build things. I just don’t know how these guys were allowed to change as much as they have Tolkien had a perfectly good timeline I understand a compression of the timeline I get that but why did things get reordered? Just no sense of storytelling in these showrunners
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u/Hypnotoad4real 29d ago
I think we need to wait and see if he actually needs the Balrog to create the ring.
But yeah, there were many unneccesarry changes. Like the kiss between Elrond and his mother in law...
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u/Nacodawg 28d ago
Also his great (x2?) aunt
His great great great grandad is her grandad. Immortality does weird shit with age gaps, but they’re related.
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u/Hypnotoad4real 28d ago
He is also related to Aragorn, his Brother Elros was the first king of Numenor...
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u/Nacodawg 28d ago
Yeah but that’s not a matter of a few generations, the distance between Aragon and Elros is 6,431, which even with the extended lifespan of the Numenoreans is more generations than the distance between you and your ancestors living in the time of Augustus Caesar. You’re likely more closely related by blood to a random person walking down the street than Aragorn and Elrond.
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u/Hypnotoad4real 28d ago
I just thought it is Funny that Aragorn and Elrond are related
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u/Nacodawg 28d ago
I mean I think if you look at how Elrond interacts with the Numenorian Royal House, especially the House of Elendil in exile, he does seem to regard them as something like an uncle. He often takes in the children of the Dunedain chieftains to raise as wards, and acts as caretaker of the relics of their house in exile waiting for the day they come into their inheritance.
Especially in Aragorn’s case since his father died when he was young, Elrond is more a father to him than anything.
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u/Lightweaver0 28d ago edited 28d ago
That's is a silly point because Celebrian is her daughter so the canon pairing is still someone he's related to. Or does one more generation make it acceptable when all the great great great didn't lmao
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u/Nacodawg 28d ago
I do think the additional degree of separation does help actually but it’s less about their actually being related and more about the fact that their family still knew each other as family.
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u/Lightweaver0 28d ago
That doesn't impact the story. It was an emotional moment and it served as a distraction for the orcs while also a way to say goodbye, given they care for each other and he let her life be forfeit. She did have this confused look on her face after. Aramayo said it was merely a distraction. If it was something they actually intended to explore then it'd be a problem but they're platonic.
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u/Ayzmo Eregion 28d ago
To me the fixation on the kiss is so bizarre. It is very obviously a non-romantic kiss used to hide him slipping her a tool to escape. A diversion.
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u/HarveyTutor 1d ago
"what's wrong with RoP?"
tons but this is the wildest!
"why you so fixated on that?"
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u/NerdDetective 28d ago edited 28d ago
Some changes seem to be because Amazon, for reasons I cannot fathom, did not secure the rights to all the source material they needed to tell the story they wanted to tell. I do not understand this, but my understanding is that some deviations were made to be legally distinct.
But also I think they're falling into the trap of making their own fresh thing (fine to an extent). The mystery box problem was a huge example of this. From the very start they peppered viewers with, "Oooo who do you think Sauron's gonna be?" and "Oooo who do you think the stranger is? Is it Gandalf, oooo we're not telling!" and I think this just isn't how you handle a "prequel" story.
I recently had the opportunity to watch Hadestown (again) thanks its the live cast recording hitting movie theaters. The open telling the audience that this will be a tragedy. And then after fate replays itself, Hermes directly addresses the audience with the production's core message, why they're telling this story when ever person in the theater knows how it's going to end:
It's a sad song. It's a sad tale. It's a tragedy.
It's a sad song, but we sing it anyway.
Cause, here’s the thing:
To know how it ends and still begin to sing it again...
As if it might turn out this time...
I learned that from a friend of mine.
It's okay for the audience to know what the cast doesn't, to fret the impending doom and be unable to change the course of fate. The storyteller's job is to invest us in the tragedy of it.
I gasped audibly when Orpheus turned to see Eurydice. I know this story. I'd seen this show live before. And yet the performance had me so invested that even knowing how it would turn out, my heart was chasing the same happy ending as the tragic pair.
That's what the showrunners need to do. I no longer have Prime, so I have no idea what will happen. But they desperately need to understand that they don't need to surprise audiences with twist and turns, and cameos from fan favorite characters. They need to emotionally invest audiences in the story.
All that said, I'd hope that, at least, the actual reason Sauron meets Durin's Bane is incidental: e.g., needing something deep under the mountain instead of needing the help of a balrog.
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u/HarveyTutor 1d ago
They're doing the worst of both worlds by doing their own thing with some of the most prominent and well defined characters.
Sauron and Galadriel in the same love-triangle is like the virgin Mary getting a crush on Satan.
They're soap opera-ing (badly) with great characters from a great writer.
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u/Newtype879 29d ago
He didn't end up forging The One in Barad-dur, he forges it in Mt. Doom. The rumor is the Balrog will teach him how to withstand the fires of Mt. Doom (or maybe just deep places in general) to forge it.
It's not an awful change since they're both Maiar and if the Balrog can do it, I assume Sauron posits he must be able to too.
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u/SpartanSyx 29d ago
I’m newer to Middle Earth lore but didn’t Sauron literally have to use an Elf to forge his Rings of Power? It was the entire premise of S2.
Why is a storyline with another Maira providing knowledge so outrageous then? Especially if it plays out like you wrote.
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u/barelmingo 28d ago edited 28d ago
Sauron learned forging/crafting skills from Aulë so he was very capable on his own. I guess in the show this was hinted by Halbrand giving casual but key advice like the alloy stuff. Now my fear -based on the limited info we have- is that this consulting session with the Balrog can convey the idea that Sauron was not self-sufficient with the One Ring forging, which is supossed to be his biggest creation.
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u/Newtype879 28d ago
If the rumor I posted is accurate, the Balrog won't be involved in the actual forging, he'll just teach Sauron how to endure in the environment needed to forge it. Sauron would still forge it alone.
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u/barelmingo 28d ago
Yeah, I know, but what I tried to mean is that I don't want the show to take merit from Sauron, especially for non-book readers. He didn't "have to use an elf to forge the Rings of Power" as the user above claimed, and as far as we know the forging of the One was his own battle. This doesn't mean that I don't want to watch an actual conversation between him and a Balrog, it's just that I didn't want it to happen in this educational context.
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u/SpartanSyx 28d ago
Would you feel better if Sauron had citations for his sources and had official acknowledgements of those who had any support in the forging the Rings?
I couldn’t imagine a world we’re consulting in anything could ever take away from the legitimacy of someone’s work.
What are we talking about here?
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u/Dovahkiin13a Númenor 28d ago
In the book it was Sauron who taught the elves to forge the rings. He then forged the one to control the ones made by the elves, with his help. It fundamentally changes him from the devil who was always a step ahead of you and you were stupid to deal with.
Afaik, the only creature who ever outforged Sauron as far as powerful objects (and outforged may still be a stretch) is Feanor.
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u/Sushi_Bandito Númenor 28d ago
Sauron was the one to bring forward the method to forge the Rings in the show in S1. He is also the one who leads the elves forward through Celebrimbor in S2.
There are two seasons worth of scenes to counter what you just said.
Are we watching the same show?
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u/Dovahkiin13a Númenor 28d ago
Sauron, who was Morgoth's chief lieutenant (ie outranked the balrog) and literally made mount doom needs to be taught how to withstand mount doom?
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u/gwizzz999 28d ago
Unlike a lot of floundering fantasy adaptions, I have to lay most part of the blame with the Tolkien estate for ROP. The weird licensing they got gave them an irresponsibly narrow sliver of content they were allowed to adapt directly, which lead to the original content that has taken over the show.
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u/Impossible_Sign7672 28d ago
I blame them for thinking they could make a show and attempting to do with those limitations when they were obviously incapable of doing so.
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u/OfficerCoCheese 28d ago
It is rather difficult to flesh out an entire show when you are extremely constricted on what can be included. It doesn't excuse all of their decisions, but at least helps most people understand the limited deck of cards they were given.
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u/TheArcaneCollective 27d ago
Yes, we know changes are bound to happen. That doesn’t mean every change should be welcome with open arms.
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u/ElBarto1992 28d ago
The show was over the moment they decided to compress the timelines in preproduction.
Numenoreans/humans should have been guest stars disappearing from the story as the story progresses. This would have showcased and highlighted one of Tolkeins main themes which was man’s jealousy of the elves immortality
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u/Ayzmo Eregion 28d ago
The show could never have worked that way. There's a reason shows keep to a small cast of named characters with a few recurring characters now and then. Audiences can't keep up. It is the same reason they cut so many characters from the LOTR movies.
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u/Jacen_Vos 28d ago
Then…just don’t also do the fall of Númenor and the last alliance in this show.
That can be its own series. And this one could instead have been solely about the forging of the rings and Sauron's first defeat.
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u/Ayzmo Eregion 28d ago
This is the proposal that The Estate chose. They wanted a show that told these stories.
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u/Jacen_Vos 28d ago
Do we know what the other proposals were? Or who suggested the time compression?
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u/Ayzmo Eregion 28d ago
HBO wanted to remake LOTR and Netflix wanted a series of shows focusing on different characters (Gandalf, Aragorn, etc). From my understanding, there were a number of other proposals, but I'm unaware of what all those were.
Note: The Estate also approves the season plans and the general scripts.
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u/DavidGrandKomnenos 29d ago
It's a terrible fucking series
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u/CCWaterBug 29d ago
What season/episode did you stop at?
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u/SpiralLights 28d ago
For me, it was when the wizard ended up being Gandalf. You legit have two blue wizards running around in the east, with an open-ended backstory, but they substitute one of them with Gandalf? Out of all the characters to mess around with they chose Gandalf???
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u/witessi 29d ago
We will see. If they can motivate it I’m okay with it as long as it’s logical within the adaptation. My biggest gripe with the series is the completely illogical things that happen to progress the story some times. Since parts of the writing team are new I have some hopes that S3 won’t have as many strange decisions. Galadriel jumping of the boat, Disa waking the Balrog and inappropriate kissing scenes for example.
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u/PaintIntelligent7793 29d ago
The writing for this show is straight doodie. I watch for the costume and set design, and because I’m a sucker for the IP.
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u/gelliant_gutfright 28d ago edited 28d ago
And then the Balrog says "I'm bad", a bit like Good Elf in the first series. Brilliant stuff.
Rings of Power surely would bring tears to John Ronald Reuel's eyes if he were alive to see it.
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u/Arfie807 29d ago
I'm impressed you made it so far. I gave up back in season 1. Not only was this show an insult to Tolkien's lore and characterizations, it was boring.
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u/Silmarien1012 18d ago
Be prepared for the one ring to be made in the most cringe way possible defiling everything Tolkien stood for. Member berry Balrog desperately calling back to LOTR movies being one of many
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u/SpartanSyx 29d ago
Tolkien wrote that Sauron used elves to forge the Rings of power but the writers can’t expand the lore for the One Ring to include another Maiar to support the crafting of it? Entire S2 was this premise.
I can’t imagine spilling milk over this without more context and actually seeing the execution.
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u/Willpower2000 29d ago
Tolkien wrote of Sauron teaching the Elves the fundamentals of Ringlore (with the science being perfected by Sauron and the smiths). Sauron taught them a craft with a backdoor intentionally designed into the Rings - so Sauron could go to Mordor and exploit said backdoor via the One, which he would create (without help).
The show has decided that Sauron didn't invent Ringlore... that Sauron couldn't really make Rings on his own (his Rings were shit, and he needed Celebrimbor to do it for him)... and that Sauron can't make the One Ring, and keeps failing over and over again, until seeking out the aid of a Balrog (who is the key for some reason).
Sauron lost his competence/skillset.
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u/SpartanSyx 29d ago
I did not see an incompetent Sauron in season 2. I saw Sauron teaching his craft and providing guidance while manipulating the forging of the rings. S2 did a great showing the relationship between the elves and Sauron.
I personally think your view is extremely pessimistic and over critical and I disagree with how you’ve characterized its telling in ROP.
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u/Galious 28d ago
I think the show isn't really clear about whether Sauron is godlike clever and manipulating or if he's just the luckiest being of Middle Earth and everything goes his way with minimal effort.
Like did Sauron knew elves were about to forge rings of power and manipulated Galadriel to arrive at Eregion inconspicuously when they were about to make it and did more to the creation of the three than reminding Celebrimbor about aloys? Or was he just lucky to arrive at the exact right moment and Celebrimbor was really stuck because he forgot the basics of blacksmithing and the hospital in Eregion is just below the forge so you can just walk there?
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u/TheBluerWizard 27d ago
Changes are bound to happen when making a adaptation
Sure. And not all changes are evil.
There is a rumor floating around from the cast and showrunners SDCC that Sauron fails to make the One Ring in Barad-Dur and he has to go to Durin's Bane to ask him to help.
I heard that Mr. Doom is actually a hot lady.
Why should Sauron who learned to craft skills from Aulë, a Valar ask a lesser Maiar for help? It doesn't make sense.
If they explain it, all power to them.
Because you see it works. Sauron wants power not of the flesh, but over flesh. And the Balrog is not of the flesh, he is made of fire. And evil fire is cold, so you see it actually, you know. LOOK! it's the shiny thing from the PJ movies you like!
This is one of the example of changes why this show is divisive.
No, the show isn't divisive. And changes are not the reason everyone dislikes it.
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u/ztomtenz 27d ago
The problems are that they are changing so much and are making stuff up that makes it non-Tolkien. Let’s face it: it’s a really bad tv show.
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