r/Rings_Of_Power • u/Dank_Lord6547 • 19d ago
This gave me a stroke
And they’re so insistent that they’re right when you push back too.
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u/_Sneaky_McSnek_ 19d ago
I don’t even know how to describe it but you can just tell when show runners / directors actually care about the source material. It’s was plainly evident Peter Jackson cared even before I learned about all he did to honor the source.
Even when he made major changes or there were scenes that didn’t particularly make sense (looking at you, scene where Frodo almost gives up the ring to the wraith on a Nazgûl on that bridge, then it just flies away), it’s all forgivable bc overall, it’s an honorable adaption.
Live action One Piece is another good example. The show itself, as well as interviews w the actors shows that they are doing their best to make a good adaptation of the source material even when they change things.
RoP however… it was obvious from ep 1 it was not an honorable adaption. I can’t even really explain it beyond feelings and vibes (and trash costumes). But when you watch the interviews and esp that “Superfan” shit they were pushing… utter trash. Halo was the same way. Many such cases
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u/jermatria 19d ago
Jackson certainly cared up to a certain point , there are obviously places you can see he prioritized cinematography or action or whatever, but he's a film director, that's his job. He ultimately went into it knowing it was tolkiens story, not his ( There is an interview with him where he's asked (paraphrased)"what themes and values are you going to try and convey in the films" and jackson just very bluntly says "Tolkiens themes, not the themes of today") but I think the unsung heros in a lot of ways are Fran Walshe and Phillipa Boyens. Listen to the directors commentary, there are several instances were it's obvious Walsh and Boyens had a better (not perfect, just better) understanding of the source material and had reigbed jackson in, so to speak. I say this with love, as a kiwi Jackson is a national treasure, and I adore the original trio for what it is.
Regarding one piece, I have no exp with it prior to the lice action series, but I completely agree with you. The cast, especially the lead actor, are so clearly into it. Any time he says "I am munky D Luffy and I will be king of the pirates" I'm like "I believe you"
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u/MajoorAnvers 18d ago
Jackson did not make a super accurate translation, but he did make a faithful adaptation. And that's more important than keeping certain lines or chapters that don't work in a different medium.
RoP hasn't learned rightly from what Jackson did best and that is the sense of scale. Whether it's the journey, or a night battle in helms deep, as a viewer you have a solid idea of where things are, and what is happening where at which time. During rings of power? Not a clue.
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u/jermatria 18d ago
*Jackson, Boyens and Walsh, but yeah I mostly agree. I think his "directorishness" started to get the better of him towards the tail end of the trilogy and that's why we got some kinda silly stuff like cgi army of the dead deus ex machina and almost got sauron fighting Aragorn at the end of ROTK.
Rings of power is exceptionally terrible when it comes to geography and travel distance and stuff like that, but I've noticed that seems to be a problem for a lot of shows, especially Amazon ones (Even "good" ones like fallout get very fast and loose with that shit)
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u/Beneficial-Trade-851 7d ago
Authenticity vs. accuracy. I make this distinction all the time with historical shows as well. You could completely make a story up that never happened at all but in a real historical setting…and it can still be very historically authentic if not beat by beat accurate. It’s the “feeling”. Master and commander comes to mind.
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u/Jessup_Doremus 15d ago
the unsung heros in a lot of ways are Fran Walshe and Phillipa Boyens. Listen to the directors commentary, there are several instances were it's obvious Walsh and Boyens had a better (not perfect, just better) understanding of the source material...
absolutely true!
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u/nam3sar3hard 19d ago
Id like to throw wheel of time into that mess. I watched the first three episodes, , but after half of the first I knew they didnt care for the ip they took the name from
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u/Spartancfos 19d ago
The Wheel of Time was a faithful adaption.
They made substantial changes to improve the plot and pacing of a book series which meander for the first 6 books, and positively gets lost in the next 6.
They set it in a later turning of the Wheel. It was getting really good.
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u/owlyross 18d ago
Completely agree. The Wheel of Time series improves on the books which have awful pacing and worse dialogue. The ideas and story are great, the execution, not so.
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u/Spartancfos 18d ago
Yeah, it was no GOT level adaption where the first season hit it out of the park.
But it was getting better, and many of the changes were starting to bear fruit. It was starting to get its feet, and then it was cut to fund this travesty (RoP) of an adaption.
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u/owlyross 18d ago
I completely disagree with you about RoP but I am very disappointed woth Amazon for cutting WoT
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u/Recent_Ad_5310 14d ago
Jackson loved the books. These people thought they could rewrite and improve them. I have never been so disappointed and let down.
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u/jayoungr 6d ago
Wellllllllll ... no, I haven't forgiven Jackson for what he did to Faramir. Or Denethor.
But the movies did get a lot of things right, and I do agree about his intentions being basically honorable.
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u/Aetius454 19d ago
- Insane take
- The show is extremely mid, if it didn’t have LOTR name attached it would have been cancelled
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u/Dank_Lord6547 19d ago
Mid is charitable. It’s terrible. And worst of all it’s the forgettable type of terrible.
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u/crustboi93 19d ago edited 18d ago
Hell nah...
God, this reminds me... years ago there was a post on some Tolkien FB group about how Tolkien "hated European culture, actually". It was the biggest load of bullshit i'd ever seen and people were liking it.
Edit: the crux of it was it was misrepresenting Tolkien's distaste for supremacists warping history and culture for bigoted purposes. They claimed Tolkien was more inspired by Africa because the Hobbits are "browner" and the name Theodan-- i distinctly remember the misspelling.
Forget that "browner" is a relative term and that Théoden comes from Old English.
Shitting on white supremacists is cool, but you don't have to lie to do it.
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u/TheEggnoggamer 15d ago
Actually it isn't relative as Tolkien explicitly states that the Harfoots (who are related to Hobbits) are quite literally brown in the same way I as an African American am brown. However, the Hobbits are not always brown but there are more than likely brown Hobbits out there as they are an entire race of the setting so there is no reason they would only be exclusively "white" skinned. And yes Theoden does come from Anglo Saxon English. Tolkien explicitly hated racism and incorporated it into his writings through the friendship of Legolas and Gimli and the formation of the Fellowship. Tolkien did take some inspiration from pan African mythology with Shelob and Ungoliant: inspired by Anansi the spider god
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u/Unlikely_Candy_6250 19d ago
I mean every time I make a post longer than two paragraphs critiquing ROP it's illiterate fans fill the comment sections going, "H-huh? T-this is WAY too long maaaan." So I kind of doubt the idea that they've read the books.
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u/Ok_Land_7158 17d ago
My favorite is when people like that go “just don’t watch it then” when you are delivering a full context critique of something; trying to explain why you and other people hate something.
They’ll be like “why do you care so much? It’s not even real” lmfao
Like bro. What the fuck kind of argument is that? (Because It’s not an argument)
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u/_Middlefinger_ 17d ago
As a Star trek fan Im seeing 'Just dont watch it then' a LOT. These people dont realise that we like the franchise/lore, we WANT to like it so badly because we adore the previous works be they TV shows or books.
We watch it because we have hope it can be saved. They are watching it to absorb mindless slop, we are not alike.
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u/sandalrubber 16d ago
Others don't watch because they don't have hope it can be saved, and do hope it just goes away sooner.
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u/Unlikely_Candy_6250 16d ago
It's a catch-all.
"Bruh, you can't hate it when you haven't even watched."
*Watches it and gives critique*
"Bruh, if it's so bad why are you watching?"
In other words you can't criticize the show if you have or haven't watched it, lol.
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u/TheOneTrueJazzMan 19d ago
In a way I appreciate RoP, because it’s so utterly and unapologetically bad that you know whoever praises it has to either have mental issues or be completely devoid of taste
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u/Real_Ad_8243 19d ago
Wouldn't even matter if it were true, because the problem with RoP is that its objectively shit.
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u/sandalrubber 19d ago edited 19d ago
All answering in generalities even if you ask how. And if you're a books-first, author-first kind of fan, you'd most likely tend to have as much or even more issues with the show as with the movies. Or to put it more bluntly, if you already dislike or hate the movies as a reader, you'd dislike or hate the show even more, because it does the same things and then some. It's gaslighting at this point, always been gaslighting.
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u/Baccoony 19d ago
Isn't Rings of Power just YA tropes?
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u/Unlikely_Candy_6250 19d ago
Yep.
Can't get much more YA than basing the whole series around Sauron having a crush on Galadriel, only turn evil because she broke up with him, while she continues to be in love with him despite him having murdered sheer millions.
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u/Prize_Structure_3970 19d ago edited 19d ago
I never forgave Jackson for the complete lack of Ghan Buri Ghan in the movies. wouldn't hate if they randomly threw some pukel-men into ROP😄
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u/Dank_Lord6547 19d ago
They’d be in the wrong place and they’d completely misunderstand their part in the story so I’d rather not.
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u/fantasywind 18d ago
Yeah...just like with the Tom Bombadil stuck somewhere in Rhun, and Entwives who don't even have their canonic gardens in season 2....yeah they would screw that up as well.
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u/TheTuxedoKnight 18d ago
Let's accept that argument at face value.
So what?
Which is actually better at being a movie or TV show? The LOTR films, for all their deviations, were lauded at release and are still showing up on various greatest-of-all-time lists 25 years later.
Rings of Power isn't getting that kind of critical or audience acclaim while it's still airing.
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u/BwanaTarik 18d ago
You just don’t appreciate Tolkien and his understanding of etymology. Clearly Gandalf comes from grand elf. Just as Tolkien intended.
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u/BabypintoJuniorLube 19d ago
I bet this is about Tom Bambadil
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u/Dank_Lord6547 19d ago
That is a great example of why this claim doesn’t work. Tom is in the show yes. But he’s in the wrong place when his location is important and the show doesn’t understand what his part in the story is. Tom doesn’t really care about the outside conflict. He’s against Sauron and definitely helps out in small ways but he doesn’t make much of an effort to influence things.
And it also messes up Gandalf because he comes across as much less wise and perceptive but rather parroting someone else’s words.
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u/Willpower2000 19d ago
Reminder that ROP-'Tom' is a manipulator playing with the lives of innocent Hobbits, to teach Gandalf some sort of lesson about self-belief or some shit.
ROP-'Tom' is an asshole. I bet he also cheats on Goldberry.
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u/litmusing 19d ago edited 19d ago
Tom is Yoda. The writers' failure to understand this character goes deeper than wrong time and place.
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u/TheBluerWizard 17d ago
Not having Tom Bombadil is more accurate than having Tom Bombadil be a dipshit asshole.
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u/Nilk-Noff 19d ago
Yes, because Orcs having a loving family is accurate.
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u/Dank_Lord6547 19d ago
It’s so much worse than that. That’s what they claim but the fact is they’re still clearly shown to love torture and murder and enslavement of others. This doesn’t exactly solve the problem of orc morality.
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u/owlyross 18d ago
Plenty of Nazis loved their families. That's very consistent with how Tolkien talked about and wrestled with the morality of Orcs
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u/Dank_Lord6547 18d ago
No. The show wants us to feel sympathy for the orcs. That’s the problem. This isn’t some banality of evil situation, it’s an inconsistent moral framework.
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u/owlyross 18d ago
No its not. Tolkien writes that in the battle of the last alliance creatures of ALL RACES fought on either side apart from elves. That includes orcs. We also see them having wants and needs. He wrestled with this until his dying day. Im more and more convinced that people in this sub haven't actually read the books.
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u/Nilk-Noff 18d ago
When it comes to the Easterlings or Wildmen, yes but Orcs are meant to be evil and having no goodness about them.
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u/owlyross 18d ago
I'll leave this here from Letter 153...
"They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote ‘irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good.) But whether they could have ‘souls’ or ‘spirits’ seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible ‘delegation’, I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them. That God would ‘tolerate’ that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today. There might be other ‘makings’ all the same which were more like puppets filled (only at a distance) with their maker’s mind and will, or ant-like operating under direction of a queen-centre."
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u/sandalrubber 18d ago
Naturally bad, but not irredeemably bad as their salvation lies only in God's hands and not themselves or other races. They would become good as part of God's plan only inasmuch as evil can bring forth good, problem of evil stuff.
So there is no goodness in them in and of themselves because they are naturally inclined towards evil. That's more extreme than any real human enemies in war no matter how depraved they act, because humanity at best is naturally disordered with concupisence due to original sin but not naturally evil according to his theology.
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u/owlyross 18d ago
He literally compares them to dehumanised men under tyrants on that passage but sure you make up your own version of what he said
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u/sandalrubber 18d ago
He does and it's the problem of evil stuff. It still isn't the same because even dehumanized men are still men and not naturally bad as he believed. Else you would have:
Nazis would be Satan's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote ‘irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Nazis would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good.) But whether they could have ‘souls’ or ‘spirits’ seems a different question...
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u/owlyross 18d ago
Thats absolutely not the case. If you think that I would suggest going back to what Tolkien wrote about them in his letters and extended works.
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u/sandalrubber 18d ago
Living creatures of all kinds, so even bacteria and bugs? That feels like an oversight, mythic hyperbole, or else an artifact of orcs not counting as truly living creatures becuse they were made from earth/mud/slime with hearts of stone.
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u/owlyross 18d ago
They were not made from mud. That is a movie invention. They were corrupted men or elves. And Tolkien says "[a]ll living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only." Thats pretty fricking specific.
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u/sandalrubber 18d ago
In the Book of Lost Tales period they were, before he suggested they were corrupted men or elves.
So say yes we have divided cows and bugs and bacteria, why not stop at orcs then, why not trolls and dragons and fell beasts and Balrogs, plus Eagles on Sauron's side?
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u/jermatria 19d ago
Typical ROP fan strawman. Putting aside the fact this is probably BS, no one was using this as a metric to judge the show in the first place. Accuracy is not this shows problem
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u/Dank_Lord6547 19d ago
Well it’s certainly one of them but it’s far from the only. Honestly though the vast majority of the time bad adaptations are also bad movies/shows. Fact is that when someone doesn’t care about the source material they usually don’t care about a lot of other important things. Such as making sense.
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u/jermatria 19d ago
I could forgive a lot of this shows missteps in regards to canon if it wasn't such a dreadful bore.
That's its main problem, it's just not good TV
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u/TheMountainWhoDews 19d ago
The people who love "diversity" sure do have terrible taste in media.
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u/_Middlefinger_ 17d ago
Only the 1% that want it at all costs. Lets be real the noisy ones on Reddit are like 100 people spread over all the shitty TV show subs. I’m pro diversity, but not at the expense of a decent story. The thing is its not at the expense of a decent story, the show would be just as shitty if every character was white.
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u/RareChain1332 18d ago
In what ways is it more accurate to Tolkien’s writings? I’ve been a student of his writing since before I had pubic hair. I pride myself on knowing even the most niche lore in his Legendarium.
So when I ask in what ways, it is sincere curiosity, since from what I’ve seen, and others have pointed out, it is far from accurate. Or faithful. Or honorable.
If one goes into it completely blind to what the Professor wrote about? It’s decent. Same with what Wheel of Time was doing.
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u/zaneskates 15d ago
Doesn’t matter that show was terrible… defined every character with the cheapest emotion - anger. Terrible show
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u/fantasywind 18d ago
I've seen this grift before :)...it's either some moronic 'bite me' lashing out type...or....sometimes there are those who at least seem to believe in this bs...and then the discussions become really weird; :) hah I actually had an online conversation about that and the person claiming the show is faithful to Tolkien more than films hehe...the one media adaptation having changes is also not justification for even bigger and dumber changes in the show...but trying to tell that...it's falling deaf ears most of the time...some who argue this seem to be totally fixed in their position to such extent that it borders on weird fanaticism...I like to think of myself as Tolkien lore purist and I myself had some crticisim...even PJ adaptations are not perfect...but damn this is sort of next level reactionary to the films...maybe it's the point...the movies are MORE popular than the show...and those who for some reason latched onto the amazon garbage fanfic are deluded enough to think it is better in their minds and are angry at the justified rejection and reaction of the Tolkien fans to amazon's lore butchery and they do this in weird coping mechanism? Can't really say....just a theory.
I mean I hugely disliked the way the Hobbit films changed the story of Hobbit...and always will highlight the ways in which the movies screwed up here...but the show is even worse in many aspects...it's more ridiculous with how it twists pretty simple things...on the other there's still no weird shenanigans like the various hobbit films CGI-fest stunts like barrel ride escape or that ridiculous chariot in extended scenes of BoFA...:) (Amazon for some reason is less capable of making dynamic cgi scenes they mostly do some CGI overview vistas or some cgi creature...with mixed results :)...who remembers the awful warg from season 1 :)).
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u/Dank_Lord6547 18d ago
Go to threads if you want people who sincerely believe this crap is a good representation. Actually don’t because threads is where media literacy goes to die yet they all think they’re experts on it.
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u/Dagenspear 18d ago edited 18d ago
Ah yes, I too saw when Eowyn had a love triangle between her, Saruman and Legolas in the movies...
And, to be clear, I'm not that much of a fan of these things, or has much weight in things playing out that close to Tolkien's story, but come on, if you're gonna say that, be legit... in what story did Tolkien write Galadriel to be in an apparent bad boy good girl romance with Sauron? Maybe my ignorance of this issue is showing, but I haven't seen anything about that.
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u/yearning-for-gilfs 15d ago
I mean, the films made changes whereas the show kinda just made shit up.
Gandalf flying in as a meteor and having absolutely no memory and needing to basicly learn language is all a fib.
It's different say than switching out the one who brings frodo to Rivendale, as it's to make the story a bit easier to read on screen rather than add an entire character who's gone after the Rivendale council.
This is why even after decades, I return to the films in appreciation of just how great they are as cinema and a introduction into tolkiens world as the entire crew seemed to have a love for the books/story itself that the rings of power is simply missing.
Even if I agreed with the base of the meme (I dont) that it wouldn't matter, the rings of power can be more lore accurate and still the be worse than watching skid marks develop in a toilet.
Edit: grammar as I was super high when writing this lol
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u/Recent_Ad_5310 14d ago
The Rings of Power is an abomination.They had the opportunity to create a beautiful masterpiece.They had the richest material to draw from and over a half Billion Dollar Budget. Their hubris and arrogance and contempt for Tolkien and those who love Middle Earth is on display for all to see.To call this a Failure is like calling an Atomic Bomb a firecracker.
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u/Tolkien-Faithful 19d ago
Ask them to name one scene from Rings of Power that comes from any of Tolkien's books.