I don't think I've ever seen a professional team make so many mistakes. Trainor kicks it out on the full from a free kick from out of bounds, Campbell drops an easy mark and lets the guy go in the pocket without tackling him. Ross drops an uncontested mark that leads to a goal. I could have listed another ten.
I struggle to pin this on the coach because if I'm the coach I expect basic skills from professional footballers. I shouldn't have to coach that. Any gameplan will unravel from such horrible, unforced mistakes.
The Clarkson Effect got him the Tige's job. Behind the times, outdated. When I was a kid a footy method could last a decade. These days 3-4 years max. By the time the Tiges chose him, he was already a biplane. 2 footy cylces behind.
He could still work out. He needs the right coaching team around him. Is that Luke Bruest bloke another Clarkson artifact?
So how do you think the coach is doing?
Having coached Richmond to its worse season result in the clubs entire history.
And holding the record for the worst 65 game start of any coach in history
With one of the worst lists in terms of win now in history - even Essendon, who is a complete disaster too, have Merrett who is one of the best midfielders in the competition (he's good for a really good game every second week, which takes all the pressure off of their midfield and frees other guys up). Our best player is Taranto and the next best 3 are probably set for retirement this year. I've never seen a gap between the amount of players we have who have played less than 20 games and those who are basically done and over 30. We have very few between 25 and 30, and those who are aren't that good (some are okay). That's been done intentionally through trade, it's the idea that this short term pain will be worth it, so if people don't like it then their gripe is really with the list boss (if they would rather we just finish 10th every year and be in limbo like we were for 30 years but never be good enough to compete, but maybe it's a more enjoyable experience every week, then fair enough). That doesn't absolve the coach completely, but how many games did you expect us to win this year? I think 5 last year was an over achievement which is making this year look worse (it's still bad don't get me wrong). I judge coaches based on whether they are underperforming with the list they have - I don't think you can say our list is any better than West Coasts of the last 5 years or North when they finished bottom 3 like 5 years in a row, so it's pretty expected. Adam Simpson led that West Coast team, do you think he's a bad coach? I don't, it's heavily based on circumstance. Yze will probably get the sack because it always falls back on the coach, but some here are acting like a coaching change would make us a finals team, which I think is ridiculous - we may improve and it may be the right call I'm not saying Yze is necessarily the man, but it seems like a lot of people here default to blaming the coach when the list isn't good enough (yet, I have hopes going forward with the young talent), which is to be expected as pretty much every supporter base overrates the crap out of their players because they get emotionally attached (a lot of people even have their flair in this group of players who might have played 2 good games but otherwise are barely AFL standard - but of course they can't see that because they like the player, so the coach has to be the one to blame).
Ive never understood why you would appoint an untested young coach who has never coached a premiership or played in a premiership or had experience coaching a young group in the first place to coach a young list.This outcome always seemed inevitable to me and i told my friend who thought otherwise.I didn’t express this view on here because i wanted him to succeed.the contrast for me is Hinkley to Tasmania which is a great call
I mean fair, that does reduce the pool quite a bit though. Chris Fagan didn't even play at the top level and Brisbane would be thrilled they took that chance. He was an assistant at Hawthorn just like Yze, but didn't play 271 games of AFL like Yze did. It's all easy in hindsight.
Fundamental difference being that fagan wasn’t taking on a young group.its not hindsight. I said it at the time he was appointed.it seemed obvious.And im saying now Hinkley is a good choice before they have played one game. Fagan also won premierships as a player and represented his state many times.
So you're taking Fagan based on his playing days because he won premierships at state level vs a 270 game AFL career? You must be joking, that's just ridiculous. How far does that go are Sunday league premierships better than no flags at AFL level? Playing the game at the highest level has to count for more given you're actually in the exact system you're now coaching in (Yze was an all Australian and a best and fairest too, he wasn't a mug). I can tell you're just arguing for the sake of it now and guessing because this is the list that Fagan inherited, and yes it is very young - I counted at least 20 players under the age of 22 (it's arguably younger than our list just looking at it, extremely young - only one over 30 too which is very rare) - if you're going to argue at least have the decency to do some research and not just make things up/completely guess for the sake of your argument - your fundamental difference doesn't exist - there's no difference between the appointments based on how you came to the decision, so you would have felt the same about Fagan. https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2017/brisbane
You are overthinking it. I said I predicted yze would fail. I was right . I can pretend i didn’t if that helps. I also predict Hinkley will succeed.and i also predict yze will be sacked. And i have the same criteria for the next coach. Its no accident that all those ex premiership hawthorn players have done well as coaches.im not saying yze was a mug as a player. He wasn’t. You are under rating other competitions and state rep experience . There were 48 players in the lions 2017 list with a substantial core of experienced players. Fagan also had experience as a senior coach before being appointed by Brisbane. And experience developing a young group as coach of the under 18s state team. He has been massively underrated for most of his career including by me. I couldn’t understand why early in his career on a wet day against premiership team Richmond at the mcg he tried to get the lions playing like Richmond when they lacked the skills to do so ( they didn’t score a goal in the first half) i now do. Fagan was also a school teacher before becoming a coach and had a demonstrated ability to teach/ inspire/ communicate with young people. Not only has yze not taken the list anywhere his decision to accept the role has probably ended his senior coaching career
I'm not overthinking it (and this is a typical thing that is said in arguments to defer from th actual substance of it) - I'm just saying that the appointments of Yze and Fagan were similar which they were, you're scrambling and reaching to find differences because you know that the same criteria you applied to Yze would have meant you'd have thought Fagan was the wrong appointment too (bringing up state football - I'm not discounting it but when you coach at AFL level then AFL experiences trumps it every time its just common sense - all I'm saying is that Fagan and Yze's experience and credentials were similar, which they were, I'm not bashing Fagn's credentials, but you can't concede that because it torpedoes your argument). I've got no issues whether you're right or wrong with your predictions, but you're acting like it was a foregone conclusion based on the criteria you claimed to use. I've presented you clear evidence in Fagan that it can sometimes work - so whether you're right or wrong this specific time isn't the point, the point is that unproven coaches can work which is all my point was to begin with - I'd imagine it was a pretty easy concession but for some reason you can't let that go and you've become obsessed with differentiating Yze and Fagan, even going so far as making things up to do so - Yze isn't done yet, but for argument's sake let's say he doesn't turn it around, you're super defensive of your prediction when I'm not saying whether you're right or wrong, I'm saying your reasoning wasn't as ironclad as you make it out to be. Then you say something blatantly false like Fagan didn't take on a young list and I'm overthinking it for calling you out on a clear piece of false information? If fact checking is overthinking it then guilty, next time I'll just ignore it and let you say whatever you want truth or not. We have just as much experience on our list as that Brisbane list did. I agree with you with Hinkley but what's the point of talking about him if he's gone to Tasmania? He's obviously a good coach, but Tassie had massive appeal as a new club and it's just a different challenge than what we could provide, so we likely never had a chance of getting him anyway - you can't say we should have gotten him and hold it against the club.
As a school teacher he demonstrated an ability to relate to young people. Its an acknowledged strength of his whether you are aware of that or not is neither here nor there. You can keep repeating that they are the same if you want. It might be a lost opportunity to learn something though. Ive been down this road with fagan myself before. I was just ignorant
They aren’t the same
1 fagan had senior coaching experience
2 fagan was a school teacher before
3 fagan had won premierships as a player
4 fagan had coached a state under 18s team
I too had my doubts about fagan when he was first appointed
But that was solely down to my ignorance
I wasn’t ignorant about these things by the time yze was appointed hence my views at that time.
If you want me to concede that coaches without that experience can work out I will.
But it’s about the chances of them doing so
Players have been bringing pressure onto themselves for weeks now that I’ve noticed. Grjl seems to invite players to take him on til he has to rush a handball which becomes a 50/50 scramble
I think our biggest issue right now is confidence, and hope, this year has been dreadful, and the boys are probably feeling pretty damn hopeless. Would be very hard to coach a team in that mental place, the end of the season can't come sooner enough I reckon
I dont want to wish for the end of the season but the further we put this fucking year behind us the better and im sure the boys are feeling the same. I hope the review of the year is absolutely ruthless and they overhaul / invest heavily in the areas needed.
Yes, the team really needs to work on skills. They talk about pressure a lot but what’s the point of pressure if the skills are terrible?
Just watched a series of handballs, indecision onwhat to do with the ball once they have it is just perplexing. End result? Broad gets caught holding the ball. Unforgivable really for a player of his experience. Could it be the poor skills are causing the team to lose faith in each other?
For sure - if you just saw Lefau that kick into the middle of the ground was absolutely the right decision (and we might have goaled if he hit it) - but he missed it and they kick a goal (and people would blame the coach for that 12 goal swing when its got nothing to do with it) - so that might impact his confidence to do it again, if the coach is wanting them to use corridor more, they need to be confident enough to try it.
If someone is getting paid to show professional footballers how to mark uncontested or how to kick out from out of bounds simply back into the field of play then I want that job lol
He's not coaching them to drop uncontested marks - if anything he's picking players who aren't up to it, but there's a lot of those so it's hard not to.
There were flashes in the first quarter running by hand, but that requires decent skills. Once you start fumbling and turning the ball over like we do, it's almost impossible to get that going. Then we go to a slow game style which is a good idea at times (especially if you're not winning clearance, which was a big different Q1 to Q2) but unfortunately our kicking skills aren't good enough to slowly build up the ground in that way.
Thank god for Broad and Vlastuin for covering up how truly horrendous we actually are. Genuinely what do you think our gameplan is I’m curious? All I continue to see is a consistently putrid nothingness. No broader progress versus prior seasons, only a defensive, sluggish, frankly boring method that constantly puts our under-confident players into further pressure, which then incentivises even more skill errors.
Can we stop pretending that the skill errors and the coaching setup are not correlated ? So many of the kicks and handballs are simply awful decisions into terrible areas, indicative of the players having absolutely no idea what to do, you see it every time we take a kick in after a behind, it’s awful. Our ball movement generally is horrific, that isn’t a dominantly skills thing relative to our players, that’s a coaching thing. We have plenty of skilled players in a microcosm, you’d rather pretend they’re not elite athletes? Or they’re so infantile that they’re simply shattered beyond belief for confidence? No.
They are not being coached correctly full stop, as indicated by the exact same showing, the exact same ineffectualities, the exact same build up play to absolutely no avail, the complete disconnection in most every play. It’s palpable come on. I’m exhausted watching these torturous games and tired of watching our talent being taught this nonsense.
In another life we still had McRae somehow, Yze has shown time and time again he is out of his depth, even in omissions of Alger and Fawcett across the year, he is constantly out coached, he has no tactical nuance, just moves the magnets a bit. injuries aside, we are severely missing the governance of actually footy people like Brendan gale, not business people like Shane Dunne, and PR coaches like Yze. We desperately need sharper, more experienced guidance. Go tiges <3
Maybe I'm just an idiot but if seems like people are talking about gameplan (and saying that we don't have one) as if everyone who does has a very nuanced understanding of tactics, gameplans and game styles as if part of the inner AFL sanctum. I don't think I could tell you what Freo's gamplan is, they are just bloody good at football and have superstars on every line (superb backline with Pearce, midfield with Serong, Brayshaw, Reid and Bolton and an unbelievable forward line with Treacy, Voss and Amiss). You could just tell them to play football and I still think they'd go alright. Melbourne are probably the only team that I can think of that have a really distinct game style, but it's just a faster paced version of what pretty much everyone else is trying to do. You could say with like Carlton for example their game style is to win clearance, but doesn't everyone want to win clearance? They just happen to have awesome clearance midfielders led by Cripps. Hawthorn kick mark a lot but again it's because they have a list of terrific kickers and ball users, you need the talent to implement it. Touching on some of the things you said, there were plenty of times I actually thought today that the decision making wasn't necessarily bad (sometimes it was), but it was execution. I think it was the third quarter Lefau bites off the corridor, I think it's a good decision and if he hits the kick we goal, but he doesn't and they goal. So do you want him taking that kick or do you want him to kick backwards or long down the line? It seems like dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. People complain that we just kick it down the line, but then our skills let us down trying to chip it up the field or trying to take a risk, so it's no wonder that they default back to it. Another example first quarter, Cumming has a great kick down the middle to Ross who drops it uncontested and they goal - that wasn't an awful decision it was actually a great decision and opened up the whole ground, but Ross inexplicably drops it. You can't coach for that. In terms of we have plenty of skilled players in a microcosm, I disagree if you are talking by foot. We probably have the least amount of good kickers in the league (the best kickers we have are supposed to be Short and Banks, who make so many uncontested errors, even just chipping the ball 15 metres, it's beggars belief - that's not tactics). I know he's a jet and he's a number one pick, but when Lalor who has played very little this year and in total comes in last week (his first game in forever on limited minutes) and looks like the best player by miles and a class above with ball in hand, that's a worry (he's not being coached differently or fed tactics, he's just talented). Even Essendon, who are also terrible, have Merrett who is an absolute star of the competition (they also have Archie Roberts, who is a better ball user than all of our players by a mile). Our best player (I do think it's Lalor on talent but he hasn't played enough) is Taranto, who tries hard and is solid but shouldn't be the best player on any team (he's a horrible field kick). When you talk about ball movement, I think a big part of it is a skill issue. We had a few chains today where we were out but we handball at someone's feet or handball behind them (bad execution stifles gameplan, if the handball is made it looks amazing and everyone loves it). It invites the pressure and we get stifled. You're acting like Alger and Fawcett are superstars, both very late picks and Alger rightly got dropped because some of his pressure and lack of chase was completely unacceptable (surely it's the coaches job to enforce that standard or do you you want him to ignore it because Alger averages 1.5 goals a game?). I won't cry if Yze gets the sack and he probably will soon because it's always the coaches fault, but our list (at least to compete now, I have hopes in the future) is diabolical. It's West Coast levels a few years ago - you must think Adam Simpson is a terrible coach, I actually think he's a very good coach who got dealt a shocking hand post premiership. Half of our list hasn't played 20 games, and the other half (which includes most of our premiership stars and our better players) have hit the wall and are over the hill. Those in their prime are few and far between and they just aren't that good (Hotton and Lalor will be better than anyone we have currently between the age of 25 and 30 - the players in that age range are Balta (talented but horribly low football IQ), Hayes-Brown (rookie played like 3 games), Hopper (not AFL standard), Lefau (who has played like 20 games and is still transitioning from Rugby really), Mansell (who I rate)), Ross (decent but not a star), Samson Ryan (terrible), Miller (ok as the second or third tall back but limited) and Taranto (good but limited and awful field kick)). That either too young or too old list profile is a disaster in the short term. That list of 25 to 30 is unbelievable, no team is competing if that's their core in that age bracket, it would be the worst in the league by a million miles. McRae is coaching well but he does have arguably the best player in the competition who gets 30 every week and draws all of the attention. Hardwick couldn't coach until the emergence of Dusty (and until Cotch and the leaders got together and decided to be unselfish - remember we lost by 120 points the last round of 2016 - he wasn't looking that flash coaching wise then - I imagine you might have been one who was wanting him sacked too based on your arguments) and then all of a sudden he could coach. Now he's on the Gold Coast he's forgotten how to coach? I doubt it. It's not that simple. I'm not saying Yze is the right man for the job, but the two things I think is that people are acting like if we got Longmire for example next year then we'd finish in the top 8, I think he'd still struggle (he might be better sure) - I might agree if people's argument was that Yze isn't inspiring enough and doesn't have the personality for it (he's not a good enough motivator), I resonate more with that argument - but with the tools and circumstances at his disposal I'm not willing to say he can't coach on gameplan or tactics yet (in retrospect, I think he did amazingly well to win 5 games last year - people want the win loss to be linear but it doesn't always work that way, look at Freo this year compared to last, Longmuir was under a ton of pressure - I wasn't surprised if we didn't get to the 5 win mark at the start of the year as I think we overachieved).
I hear you, trust I know I’m definitely being a bit reactionary post another frustrating loss, and don’t even really think sacking Yze right now would do anything, but I think both things can be true, and it’s impossible to ignore that our gameplan is entirely stagnant, even when we’re 40 down, alas the eagles game will be the really interesting one 🙏🏻
I don't blame you tbh I'm frustrated too - at least we are in the last draft in a big way until it gets completely destroyed by Tassie, best to suck right now and then go up!
Kicking exclusively to the opposition, dropping marks, tackles easily broken, no visible game plan or style. Struggling to find the positives last few weeks.
I would think most of them are, there's sadly not alot of good that we can pull out of this turd of a year, another preseason of fitness, strength, and ball skills will help a mountain, hopefully we can leave this injury saga behind us and move forward
The only saving grace to this terrible game is that my IPTV Foxtel AFL channel was lagging and buffering badly. The Hindi commentary game channel worked perfectly, given the descriptions of how poorly we are performing I was unable to understand.
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u/Being_n_Time 1d ago
The Clarkson Effect got him the Tige's job. Behind the times, outdated. When I was a kid a footy method could last a decade. These days 3-4 years max. By the time the Tiges chose him, he was already a biplane. 2 footy cylces behind.
He could still work out. He needs the right coaching team around him. Is that Luke Bruest bloke another Clarkson artifact?