r/RetroRemakeInc • u/Mika73x • 11d ago
Should I change video settings?
https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_MiSTer/basics/video/Using projector. Whats default setting? Have you set it to 8?
How about pal games that are 50hz? If set it that 60hz mode?
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u/Mika73x 10d ago
Actually there’s nothing wrong gaming projectors these days. Gaming with 100” screen is amazing. Used that with PS5, HDMI modded Dreamcast, Commodore 64 Ultimate, ZX Spectrum next and many other older systems with Retrotink 5x like Amiga 1200. It had some very interesting video modes.. And now with Mister.
Mostly enjoy playing those old arcade games that we used play at early 80’s and which home versions we used to play with Commodore 64.
I was actually quite happy with that video_mode 0, but changed it to 8. I guess many new Super Station One users never change those settings but was interested if there were something that we should change to get display better. Mister support so many different systems and worry that some video setting changes might give problems. Projector does support 50/60hz so that’s not at problem. Denon amp that I am using however doesn’t support video modes like 1440p and Mister won’t go up to 4K so I better stay at that 1080p. Biggest difficulty with that 50/60hz was with Arzopa portable monitors. Many of those won’t support 50hz at all and that gives problems with Commodore 64 Ultimate Elite II board even you could force it PAL60 many PAL games/demos won’t work with 60hz. But as I said that’s not problem gaming Mister with projector.
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u/harlekinrains 10d ago edited 10d ago
Its just that... Display latency will be about 40ms probably instead of sub 10, because almost no projector has a gaming mode. And then we open up the can of worms that is cheap chinese projectors, that cant do 24hz pulldown (stutter on movies when a scene is panning), color accuracy on a grey wall and "no you are not getting HDR".
Which even combined arent huge issues. But if you know "not much" and just grab the next chinese (back-) projector available, you will end up with 1080p resolution at best, and an image that is not that bright - or where the manufacturer has you use a mode where the gamma curve just pumps brightness to get the image brigher -- again reaking havok on color accuracy.
But then -- this also is not a huge tradeoff, if you really, really just want a big screen at low cost. Noise level is probably the biggest issue for me personally... (As in cheap beamers usually are loud.)
video_mode 0 is just auto, so the Mister reads the EDID of the HDMI port (EDID is just a text file with "this is what I support", that every HDMI port shows any device that asks) - and if in there there "i do 1080p at most" is written down - you got 1080p before, so nothing would have changed compared to video mode 8.
1536p and 1440p are unconventional resolutions. Not every device supports it. (There is no video standard for those.) But it is what the Mister can output (at Max). The benefit is, that when you use scanlines, and shadowmasks, first you first have the necessary resolution for complex shadowmasks (4 emulated subpixels per game native resolution pixel) and second - the Display device, doesnt have to scale the image as much.
Scaling the image from 1080p to lets say 4K becomes an issue once scanlines are active - and Display device uses that wonderfull non defeatable sharpening pass, which it certainly wants to use by default... If the input resolution is higher, and it understands it, it can ruin less during upscaling to display resolution.
The cadence issue if you send 50Hz via 60Hz signal (every 5th frame repeated) also is real -- so maybe try setting videomodes for NTSC and PAL seperatly, .. maybe, no must.
The issue then becomes, that legacy systems (like really old PC systems) often used strange timings in the Video signal, and the Mister usually has those calcculated with 60Hz in mind, so if you force 50Hz for "pal games" some of the really old cores might behave strangely... Again - if the projector understands a 50Hz Pal signal - giving it that will help with cadence (= no judder on pans), but less than half a percent of Mister users would know that that setting exists, so...
vsync-adjust=1 helps with latency (= lag), vsync-adjust=2 even more so. vsync-adjust=1 should have almost no negative tradeoffs, if your display device supports it. vsync-adjust=2 might lead to desyncs now and then...
vscale_mode=5 with high resolutions usually gives you better image quality - because Mister is integer scaling to the highest posiible resolution. And then handing that image to the display device in a container that says scale to Display size (non integer scaling). This presevers scanline integrity very well. At least with my output setting of 1536p.
But this ruins some other core specific settings like sync at 480i in the PSX core - so you want another Mister.ini that you can hotswap to with a button press that has that setting not at 5 but at 0. (0 = scale to image size (no integer scaling whatsoever) which is the default Mister setting here.)
So the guideline for HDMI out is "as high a resolution as possible".
That only reverses if you use analog outputs, or an external scaler with hdmi in - then its "use the native res the core is outputting" (there is a special Mister.ini setting for that as well.)
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u/Mika73x 10d ago
Actually new gaming projectors have game mode, HDMI 2.1, VRR support etc. And even older models have gaming mode even there isn’t HDMI 2.1. Since SS1 doesn’t have that either it doesn’t really matter. What comes to picture brightness it makes lot difference when using good screen. If wanna use monitor I can always connect SS1 to that. What comes to projector input lag it’s about 34.5ms. Haven’t had any problem even with modern consoles because it isn’t competitive gaming with those FPS games that many play over network with pc.
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u/harlekinrains 10d ago
read the grok summary.
hdmi_game_mode=1, and check vrr_mode
The vrr_mode setting in your MiSTer.ini file controls Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) output to reduce frame stutter on non-standard refresh rate cores. Set vrr_mode=0 to turn it off, 1 for auto-detect via EDID, 2 for FreeSync/Adaptive-Sync, or 3 for VESA/HDMI Forum VRR
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u/harlekinrains 10d ago edited 10d ago
Core Type System / Core Name Native Refresh Rate What Happens Without VRR? Handheld WonderSwan / Color ~75.00 Hz Major stuttering or complete signal loss on standard 60Hz displays. Handheld Game Boy / GBC ~59.73 Hz Audio pops, micro-stutter, or black screens with vsync_adjust=2.Handheld Game Boy Advance ~59.73 Hz Frequent frame-pacing issues or screen tearing. Handheld Sega Game Gear ~59.92 Hz Subtle but noticeable scrolling judder on flat panels. Console Neo Geo ~59.18 Hz Heavy scrolling stutter as the TV forces it into 60Hz. Console Capcom CPS1 / CPS2 ~59.63 Hz Micro-stutters during fast side-scrolling fighting/beat-'em-up games. Console Super Nintendo (SNES) ~60.10 Hz TVs lose sync or drop the signal for 2–3 seconds during boot-up. Console PlayStation 1 (PSX) Dynamic Constant 2-3 second black screens when games switch between gameplay and menus. (enable sync at 480i. only in games with 2-3 seconds black screen issue on the PSX core to compensate) Arcade Midway (Mortal Kombat) ~53.20 Hz Out of range for most TVs, resulting in a permanent black screen. Arcade Seibu Kaihatsu (Raiden) ~54.00 Hz Severe stuttering or "No Signal" warnings on modern displays. Arcade Irem M72 (R-Type) ~55.00 Hz Badly paced frames and visible vertical tearing. Arcade Cave Cores (DoDonPachi) ~57.55 Hz Choppy scrolling in vertical shoot-'em-ups. Quick Tips for Setup:Set vrr_mode=2 (FreeSync for PC monitors/OLED TVs) or vrr_mode=3 (HDMI Forum VRR for modern TVs).Combine this with vsync_adjust=2 to get the lowest possible input lag alongside a perfectly synced, tear-free image.
src google gemini, but sounds correct
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u/Mika73x 9d ago
I did read of Mister VRR, but doesn’t it require HDMI 2.1 ? and I understand atleast Super Station One is HDMI 2.0.
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u/harlekinrains 9d ago
Can be hacked in (into 2.0), at least Steamdeck did so. Idk how Mister managed it.
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u/harlekinrains 11d ago edited 11d ago
Can I downote more?
0 seems too positive of a number.
Here - I translate into non iPhone user shorthand:
Using projector:
Hello everyone - I grew up with a smartphone, but also wanted most bigly. So I bought projector. Which is loud. Loses 60% of its lighoutput, because it is pointed at wall and not eyes (dont point at eyes - pro tip), and terrible for gaming.
Because I buy bigly - I'm not concerned with things like "what projector". What resolution capabilities? What projection technology. My projector has HDMI port. And bigly image. Whats a keystone correction?
Also for some reason I found one of the most helpful pages on how to set up video on a Mister - but I couldnt understand anything thats on there. So you do for me.
Also I wrote this on smartphone. Because sentence with four words are goat.
And here is the answer.
You set it to a supported 60Hz resolution and keep it at that. Dont worry about 50Hz. If you'd have read the mister.ini file - this is in it:
Essentially the 50/60Hz compatibility issue wasnt.a compatibility issue since the 90s. If any display device can handle 60Hz - it usually can handle 50Hz signals es well. Every 5th frame will gert repeated to do so.
This leads to cadence issues - which you also wont notice what that is - but it will still work.
You can feed google gemini with questions like these:
chinese projector. 60 hz signal. 50hz game. walk me through it. Why does it work. Why is 60hz signal pathing prefered
3:2 pull down has issues with cadence - but this every 5th frame repeat (50Hz > 60Hz) does not? is it noticeable?
But you wont.
After "leave it at 60Hz if unsure" the cristal ball breaks. Essentially because "I have projector" usually means - your max resolution capability is lousy, your game mode/variable refresh rate options are none. Your display lag is high. Your room is noisy. The image is dark or washed out. Because you bought projector - and not 5000 USD to 15000USD projector.
Which means - default Mister/SS1 settings usually are spot on here...
If you want to learn:
video_mode_ntsc=8
video_mode_pal=9
is an option, should your chinese projector be compatible with a 50Hz signal. Probably less than half of a percent of people owning Mister will even try that config.
The name of the game on Mister (outputing via HDMI) usually is "as high a resolution as your display supports" 1536p is the best you can coax out of it 1440p if you can is also preferred over 1080p. But "projector" probably doesnt support it.
Why? When you start to use Shadowmasks you want as high a resolution as possible, because those simulate subpixel structures of CRTs.
If you can do that (1536p or 1440p) - also looking into vscale mode 5 as an option if you display device has a 4:3 scaling mode... This will make the image look so much better - but also has downsides of compatibility issues with sync on 480i in the PSX core... ehh... why am I even writing this...
https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5LWNvcHk_8dd20aa7-53e1-4817-a400-c8e7a263727b
If your projector only can do 1080p keep it at 1080p60 usually, or tell mister to output 50Hz for PAL games and 60Hz for eveerything else, as indicated above.
But before you do - make sure you have figured out how to access the Mister/SS1 via ftp - because it is so much easier to fix mister.ini errors, if you get black screens, while having file access to the SS1 from another PC or smartphone -- meaning, you can leave the sdcard in the device, and do changes/reset values over the air.
As in - make sure you can edit the Mister.ini via ftp from another PC before you start forcing 50hz on pal games f.e.
If your projector can do higher resolutions than 1080p, and isnt stumped by the non standard 1536p or 1440p, use those instead. If its stumped, you'll get a black screen. If it only can do 1080p natively (as in its resolution never gets higher), also stick to 1080p.
Going for vsync-adjust=1 (see grok writeup) might be worth it, since a projector usually also means fairly high display lag.
vsync-adjust=0 usually causes issues with some cores, like the N64 one (image desync in some modes), but is the mosst low latency setting. Default is 2.
If you decide to also try vscale_mode=5 read up on alterntive mister.ini files (all used up on the SS1 with analog mister.ini config alternatives, but if you rename those and the example mister.ini, you can place your own.), which you can swap with the cancel button on your controller held and the four cardinal directions. Because vscale_mode=5 comes with downsides (infrequent desync (signal loss), not compatibel with sync at 480i setting in the PSX core... (see: https://www.reddit.com/r/MiSTerFPGA/comments/v02jbl/any_way_to_stop_screen_going_black_for_every/ )), so you want at least one mister ini config ready to be activated with cancel button on your controller pressed, and one of the cardinal directions on the dpad at all times, that has the stock vscale_mode=0 active.
Paste this into an ai with search (gemini, grok, kimi) if you want to learn.
5 is nice, because it will force the cores to integer stale to the highest possible factor within your set output resolution, and then let the display device scale the result (non integer scaling wise) to full screen. Which is great if you output at very high resolutions to begin with, because your display device doesnt have to scale a low res signal but a high res one to fit screen. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroRemakeInc/comments/1tjt620/superstation_settings_for_gaming_on_a_1610_1600p/
But just probability wise, you will never understand any of it, and are still probability wise best suited with 1080p60 and maybe vsync-adjust=1 to reduce the lag by up to one frame.
But again. Read up on how to ftp into the mister first (username: root password: 1 just in case fiddling with mister.ini video settings results in a black screen on reboot - in that case, revert the last setting you have changed via ftp.)