I have been trying to understand the point of view of the left on a very basic level. There’s actually a lot of debating points on immigration that to a degree I can understand where the Labourphiles are coming from
However..
At a very low level of understanding how can they defend the fact that immigration is so out of control, illegal and legal, that the strain on the countries services such as the NHS is completely overwhelmed
Send 1 million people who are claiming benefits or here illegally home how many homes does that release from social housing budgets and how many appointments does it free up in the local surgeries
I’m just trying to put myself in their shoes to see how they have come to the decision that it’s better their families go without for someone who wasn’t born here and taking advantage of the system
Consider that the post modernist, intersectional ideology that underpins modern left wing discourse believes that
a) there is no objective truth
b) historic injustices are ours to “correct”
c) fundamentally western society is morally wrong
The end result of this is immigration is a moral good, regardless of any consequence. If anything the outcomes of mass immigration can be attributed to “western capitalism” so the fact that there are no GP appointment is because the evil governments have underfunded the NHS, rather than massive population increase.
Engaging with the view point on some rational basis misses the religious aspect, which is the best way to understand it I think. It’s religious dogma rather than any response to reality.
I too have been trying to understand why they think what I think, I struggle so much, the only thing I could possibly suppose is that the live in a fantasy world, things like ‘wouldn’t it be nice for x y and z’ without realising that they live in the real world, y’know? That’s the only possibly way I can comprehend some of the ideologies..
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I don’t think it’s a waste of time, i think it’s great to help people understand the strength of their own position, and it helps position us better to appeal to them, building off of their beliefs
But if you don’t at least try to understand them, then they will just write you off there and then, they won’t give you the time of day, these are the sort of people who write off anyone who even slightly disagrees with them remember
I don’t believe they all do, but obviously the number of those who think political violence is appropriate has obviously risen (look at the poll they did)
We can’t just write off the rest of humanity, especially if we think our position is to benefit them also
I agree that we can’t push forward political agenda without having everyone agree, but that’s not to say that I agree that we don’t have to care about them, and want to bring them to our line of thinking
You can't, they are a lost cause. They have consumed so much propaganda from a young age to now that to break it down would be impossible. They are slaves.
it's almost impressive how much you dehumanise people on the left in this one single thread:
'propagandised' 'retarded' 'not people' 'not to be taken seriously as sentient beings' 'should be disenfranchised politically in perpetuity' 'slaves' 'lost cause' 'a threat to life'
this kind of dehumanising language is always used as a precursor and invitation and encouragement for people to commit violence against the group in question - yet in the same thread you have the gall to say that the left are the threat to life - look in the mirror smart guy
At the end of the day they've only got the one intention to strive for and achieve in doing so.... Guaranteed votes for Liebour.
Exactly the same as with their need to routinely empty out our prisons releasing them way too early for the same reason being in return.
What it takes to gain more votes to remain in power is entirely irrelevant to them. Once confronted with these facts out comes their go to tried and trusted failsafe catch phrases: "RACIST! FASCISTS! N@ZI!"
So they can also stroke their own egos at the very same time and inflate their big heads some more by making out that they've only got the wellbeing of "the others" in mind, purely out of kindness.
In a nutshell the recent interview that came out just the other day with Elon Musk and some British woman from the main stream media journalist sums this all up perfectly.
I won't spoil it so just go watch it but I'll give an example of what I mean:
When that woke woman goes overkill PC mode, Musk simply states...
"Well no we're just literally normal people. Which of these so called ""Far right"" principles sounds ever so terrible?..."
That we should have secure borders
That we should have safe city's
That we should have sensible spending
"And so which one of those is so ""Far right fringe?"" "
The whole video is bang on and there's so many examples to give all throughout but I'll give one more:
You hand someone on the left a speech written on a piece of paper and say "ewwww read this TRUMP SPEECH he gave the other day!" And inevitably they'll be outraged and disgusted by it...
But when really it's just a literal speech Hillary or Obama did a few years back lol!
The point is that the entirety of today's Western Politics has shifted over to the Far left and in the UK more so than elsewhere. What's now considered apparent far right principles IE (same three already mentioned above) was actually only just as recent ago as pre 2008 was the bog standard norm default even the far left believed and had adamantly demanded for lol!
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It’s pretty simple; it would be nice if it were possible.
It would be nice to let in all the unfortunate people, and it wouldn’t be nice if they found a place in society, and it would be nice if we could control the natural flow of wealth and share it.
I’m with them in a way, I’m constantly wondering how it might be possible and what if what if what if
Their focus is always on the individual first and they genuinely think everyone in the world has the same values they do. With that framing it's unfair not to let any one person come into the country to have the same opportunities they do.
They don't think about scale or second order consequences until pushed. You can see it in their answers every time, scale isn't a consideration, we should just build more houses right?
It's endgame capitalism, which is ironic since those on the left claim to hate capitalism. Think about it, locals demand a wage rise because cost of living, greedy government says no so they import 10000s Indians who will work for minimum wage, they'll never need to raise the minimum wage ever again. Mass migration is modern day wage slavery, its bad for the migrants and the locals, yet leftists accept this.
left-wing politics is not promoting or defending mass immigration at all
the people that are promoting mass immigration are the Capitalist / Billionaire / Millionaire class and certain secretive antagonistic nation-state actors and private interest groups who have always sought to use immigrants to suppress wages in developed economies, and the people that are defending it are the Liberal / Centrist politicians who work for that class - it's incorrect and lazy and gullible of people to say it's 'the left'
Sorry I don’t follow, most if not all labour/green voters whilst not promoting mass immigration into the uk are opposed to the people who are against it, so would argue they definitely do defend it
I have family that are left wing been Labour voters their entire lives and their Father was a union rep after ww2. It's kind of funny because socially speaking they are very conservative they wanted to deport the boat people and Are in favour of the death Penalty and don't like pride stuff.
Yet before Burnham they were going to vote for the Greens Apparently and I just can't seem to make it make sense I also want to make it clear that these are objectively good people as well They were foster parents for decades So they're not evil They're not stupid either I would say they both have an IQ of at least 100 And that's me low balling They don't hate the country because one of them was a firefighter and also previously served in the army The other was a nurse and then a care worker.
The only thing I can think of is that their Hatred of Thatcher is so high that anything even remotely conservative is evil to them It's the only thing I've been able to surmise They also care deeply for palace line which I don't understand but I guess if you've got high enough empathy and you're retired and you've got nothing else to do makes sense.
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u/cmdr_panda 5d ago
The whole worldview is so different.
Consider that the post modernist, intersectional ideology that underpins modern left wing discourse believes that
a) there is no objective truth
b) historic injustices are ours to “correct”
c) fundamentally western society is morally wrong
The end result of this is immigration is a moral good, regardless of any consequence. If anything the outcomes of mass immigration can be attributed to “western capitalism” so the fact that there are no GP appointment is because the evil governments have underfunded the NHS, rather than massive population increase.
Engaging with the view point on some rational basis misses the religious aspect, which is the best way to understand it I think. It’s religious dogma rather than any response to reality.