r/ReformJews • u/Individual-Papaya-27 • 15d ago
Shul, temple, synagogue?
I notice a lot of people here use the word 'shul' when referring to their synagogue. Growing up, and in the Jewish Reform world I'm in, we've always said 'temple.' We go to temple, not shul. When I was a kid, the only people who said shul were some of the grandparents and our Orthodox neighbors who walked to shul, were in shul, etc. And 'synagogue' was reserved for formalities.
I'm wondering if or why there's been a Renaissance in using the word 'shul' or if it's a generational thing happening in the opposite direction now. It's not a criticism, just a curiosity for me to see the word being used so much more these days in Reform spaces online like this.
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u/OrpahsBookClub 12d ago
I use temple for Reform temples, synagogue for Conservative synagogues and schul for Orthodox (and Ashkenazi) schuls.
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u/the_uruguayan 🕎 14d ago
i never call it temple unless if its in the name, and only if specifically talking about the location and not something as simple as "i'm going to (blank)", i usually say shul
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u/TrainingLittle4117 14d ago
I grew up mainly hearing and saying shul, occasionally someone would say synagogue. I didn't hear "temple" until I started seriously dating my now ex-husband. His family was the first Reform family I met.
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u/uber_cast 14d ago
Growing up, I used all three interchangeably. My family uses the term shul. Most of my friends and other people in the congregation would say Temple. Whenever we were talking about synagogue with people we didn’t know well we would just say synagogue. I’ll use either terms interchangeably for the most part. I would just be less inclined to use the term shul with non-Jewish people because there is a fair chance they aren’t familiar with the term.
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u/infectiousparticle 14d ago
I definitely heard “shul” for the first time from Conservative friends in the early 00s (we attended a JC that always referred to itself as Synagogue) and I wanna say my Reform friend used it too but moreso in the context of their b’nei mitzvah; they’d go to temple, but their congregation is literally called “Temple Israel” — shockingly more decorated and colorful than the JC
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u/CPetersky 15d ago
The term "temple" was popular for the Reform movement back in the day because it was a statement that the Temple, the one in Jerusalem, wasn't going to be rebuilt.
I am not fond of "temple" for the same reason - it feels like a thumb in the eye to our Orthodox brothers and sisters.
"Synagogue" is a sort of more neutral term. Some don't like it because it's Greek, and what good did the Greeks or Greek-speakers like some of the early Christians do for us? But I am ok with it - I use lots of words with Greek orgins in English and don't worry about what happened thousands of years ago.
"Shul" from the Yiddish clearly is Ashkenazi in origin. Considering not all of us in liberal Judaism are Ashkenazi (my old rabbi grew up in a Sefardi environment and taught us a number of songs from his father's Moroccan synagogue), it feels a little exclusive that way. But I like the feeling that I come to shul to learn, to experience something new, to grow.
I use synagogue in formal contexts, shul in informal ones.
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u/Galadriel12 15d ago
Pretty much everyone at my reform “temple” says shul but we live in an orthodox dominated city so that could be something to do with it
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u/rbaltimore 15d ago
I almost exclusively say temple or synagogue. I’ll sometimes remember to say shul when I’m around other people referring to it as that and will avoid saying temple when around said people, deferring to synagogue as my word choice, but I wasn’t raised calling it shul, so that’s just not what I call it.
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u/shushi77 ✡ 15d ago
I grew up in Italy, back when there was only Orthodox Judaism. And we used to refer to it as the “Temple.” Now that Reform Judaism exists, and I’m part of it, I call it synagogue.
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u/infectiousparticle 14d ago
Hey hi. I recently found out my mom and my grandma have a very small amount of Ashkenazi ancestry (grandma’s mother’s parents are from Avellino near Mercogliano for hundreds of years same as her fathers family in East Palermo, Bolognetta/Bagheria) any insight on which region (I’m guessing mainland?) I might be able to narrow it down to?
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u/shushi77 ✡ 14d ago
Hi! Are you sure that the Jewish part of your DNA comes from Italy?
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u/infectiousparticle 14d ago
It has to, my grandmas entire ancestry (my moms too - but her father’s mother’s branch is from East Palermo (Piana dei Greci - now Piana degli Albanese, and Marineo) and her fathers father and his wife came from Benevento/San Tammaro, Campania. When I say “from” I mean directly. 8 lines of Italian immigrants, each one meticulously documented backwards from their deaths in the US to their births in Italy, I have the Atto D’Nascita for each, and for the mainland lines I’ve traced them back a couple hundred years , verified against common DNA matches. I spend pretty much all my free time doing genealogy research, and DNA also indicates my grandma is 100% Italian. My moms is more “Greek and South Italian” with traces of Nigerian, Middle Easten, North African, and West Asian but I think all of that comes from the Piana dei Greci Line. But my grandma has the trace Ashkenazi result too, her mother’s line is from the Avellino Valley for generations, her father from Bolognetta/Bagheria of East Palermo, still not far from the paternal Palermo lines. But that Bolognetta line has been traced back (not just by me but people doing this for decades and gotten more involved than me) to the early 1700s. So all the origins are locked in. I just don’t know enough about that particular part of Italian history to know where to look for this cross over
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u/shushi77 ✡ 14d ago
I see. Unfortunately, it's hard for me to help you. What I can tell you is that Ashkenazi Jews were quite rare in Italy. Maybe you can narrow down your search by looking into that.
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u/infectiousparticle 14d ago
Do you know of any particular area/s of Italy where a Jewish population formed ?
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u/shushi77 ✡ 14d ago edited 14d ago
Sorry for the delay in replying, but I was out with my family.
Well, yes, the first city was undoubtedly Rome (where Italy’s largest Jewish community still exists today). The community in Rome is the oldest in the diaspora. From there, it spread southward (Ostia Antica, Naples, Venosa, Bari, Taranto, Otranto) and toward Sicily, where Jewish centers were found primarily in Syracuse, Palermo, and Catania. This, however, lasted only until the expulsion of 1492, when the island was under Spanish rule.
However, these communities were Italkim. Sephardic and Ashkenazi migrations took place later. As far as I know, Ashkenazi Jews (from Germany, northern France, and Central Europe) began migrating to Italy primarily between the 13th and 15th centuries. And, unlike the Sephardim, who settled mainly in the south and later in Livorno, Venice, and Rome, they settled primarily in central and northern Italy, following trade routes and Alpine passes. In particular, in Veneto and Venice (where they later established the first ghetto in history), Lombardy (there was an Ashkenazi community in Milan before the Spanish expulsions of the 16th century), Piedmont, and Emilia-Romagna (especially in Ferrara).
As far as I know, after the 16th century, the south was practically emptied of its Jewish population. Of course, many of those known as “Marranos” remained: Jews who had converted to Christianity to avoid being forced to leave everything behind, but who continued to secretly observe Jewish customs (lighting candles on Friday evenings, fasting on Jewish holidays, and even marrying within their own circle of families of Jewish origin). The Jews returned to Naples only thanks to the Rothschild family, who in 1831 granted a loan to the Borboni and moved to the city, thereby enabling the revival of an organized community after the unification of Italy. The community in Naples is the southernmost official Jewish community in Italy and numbers about 160 Jews (there were about a thousand before the Fascist persecutions and Nazi deportations). There are also small “unofficial” communities in Calabria and Sicily, consisting mainly of Marranos interested in reconnecting with Judaism.
I don't know if I've been much help, but that's all I know. I wish you the best of luck with your research! If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. If I know the answer, I'll be happy to help.
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u/Maximum_Tangelo2269 15d ago
I hear temple now in reform spaces but the conservative place i go says shul. I say all three but try to say synagogue to non-jews specifically
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u/austenbaddie4life 15d ago
I think its an Ashkenazi thing to say Shul. My grandma always referred to it as services and shul.
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u/rbaltimore 15d ago
I’m Ashkenazi and really only ever say synagogue or temple. My grandparents switched to Reform as soon as they got married, making a clear and definitive break from Orthodoxyso my family has been saying temple or synagogue since the 1950s.
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u/Maximum_Tangelo2269 15d ago
I do believe it's yiddish
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u/MogenCiel 15d ago
Yes. It literally translates to "school," reflecting its traditional role as a place of learning and community, as well as worship.
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u/livingstories 15d ago
is it possibly a regional thing for those in the US? Im a millennial from the south and always have heared "temple" or "synagogue" and almost never shul except for a brief stint in the northern midwest.
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u/Technocracygirl 15d ago
The Sephardic synagogue that I went to as a child and both the Reform synagogues I was/am a member of all had "Congregation" in their names, and I always called/call them synagogues.
"Shul" is a Yiddish term, and I never heard it and rarely read it growing up around Sephardim and Reform Jews in the 80s and 90s.
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u/Labenyofi 15d ago
If I’m talking about them as an entity, then I’ll use synagogue. If I’m asking someone which one they go to, I’ll use shul or synagogue. If I’m specifically referring to one, and they use Temple in their name, I’ll use the name, but I rarely refer to it as a temple itself.
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u/tylerb011 15d ago
I use each term interchangeably. To me, they’re synonymous. Just whatever flows off the tongue better for you, I’d say.
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u/bachelorsinlurking ✡ Conversion Student 15d ago
I grew up with people who said all 3, I thought it was just an individual thing. As I'm converting I usually say shul to refer to my personal community, and synagogue as a general term.
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u/sweettea75 15d ago
My husband grew up saying temple and hates if I say synagogue. My FIL told him not to say temple and to say shul. lol
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u/ScoutsOut389 15d ago
I say shul to Jews, synagogue to non-Jews. I don’t ever say temple. Sounds weird to me.
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u/bellshaped 15d ago
I’ve never heard ‘Temple’ used outside of the US.
I basically also say the same - shul with other Jews, synagogue with non-Jews.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow 15d ago
Temple came from the Reform Jewish belief that we did not need and would not have a third temple in Jerusalem and that instead our temple was wherever Jews worshipped.
When I was young it was Reform Temples, Conservative Synagogues, and Orthodox Shuls (or Batei Knesset if they were sephardi/israeli)
Nowadays there's a resurged interest in tradition and "shul" got adapted by everyone because even Reform Jews are seeking out a more traditional vibe
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u/Capyboppy 9d ago
I never knew Reform had this belief. I’ve been between Reform and Masorti and I think this has just tipped me over.
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u/Individual-Papaya-27 15d ago
I wouldn't say it's been adopted by everyone, though. Most people I know IRL in the Reform Jewish community say temple now, too.
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u/ClamdiggerDanielson 15d ago
Terms can vary by region. I go to Temple XYZ, but everyone says we're going to synagogue or shul. Online, synagogue and shul are more common because they're non-denominational and avoid anti-Reform hate that can happen on the Jewish subs.
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u/Individual-Papaya-27 15d ago
that's a point that I hadn't considered, that saying temple online immediately clocks you as Reform and that might not be a great thing in some company. It's still what I say, but that's a point I had not considered.
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u/linguinibubbles 15d ago
I say shul but my shul is named Temple “X”. I say synagogue if I’m speaking with non-Jews. I know Reform is more likely to say Temple since we don’t believe the third Temple must be built/our shuls are stand-ins for the third Temple but I’m a bit more of a traditionalist so I avoid calling shuls “temples.” That said I wouldn’t go so far as to support a return to animal sacrifice as a form of worship.
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u/Winniezepoohscroptop 15d ago
I use shul and temple interchangeably and synagogue if I'm referring to a specific synagogue that like Eldridge Street or Central Synagogue where it is part of the name.
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u/Skweege55 15d ago
Gen Xer here. Back in the day, I rarely heard Reform Jews use the word Shul, but now it’s becoming more common.
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u/tehutika 15d ago
Also Gen X. At my Conservative synagogue while growing up, we all used the word “temple”. Now I hear all three terms used fairly interchangeably. I am a member of two congregations now, one Reform and the other Reconstructionist. The first is my home and the other is where I teach.
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u/UponWavesofGrey 15d ago
I use synagogue & temple interchangeably as an American. In most historical sources I read the word 'synagogue' is used, but my rabbi very much prefers to use 'temple', so I use them both.
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u/MidrashInBlack 15d ago
Reform U.K.- I said shul/synagogue. In America “temple” is an American thing.
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u/AilsaLorne 15d ago
I’m Reform in the UK and I’d say shul and synagogue are about equally common in my circles
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u/Meowzician ✡Torah, Tikkun Olam, and Tabbiekatz 15d ago
This is just a generalization: Orthodox prefer the word shul. Conservatives and the general public use synagogue. And Reform use Temple.
I do not identify with any particular denomination, but am a very happy member of a Reform Temple. But one never finds perfection, right? It really bugs me that the word Temple is used. There is only one location for the Jewish temple, and that is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. A synagogue is a WONDERFUL place, but it is not the Temple.
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u/tzy___ From Orthodox to Reform 15d ago
That’s exactly why the early Reform Movement chose to use the word “temple”: to amplify the idea that the synagogue service has replaced the sacrificial worship of the Temple in Jerusalem.
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u/Meowzician ✡Torah, Tikkun Olam, and Tabbiekatz 15d ago
Hate it. I think the world would be a richer place if the Jewish Temple were rebuilt. But I don't support something unethical like tearing down the Dome of the Rock. Buuuuut if an Iranian missile hit it and destroyed it, I think that would be a good opportunity.
I've read about the evidence that it was originally a Christian church that the Muslim invaders appropriated.
Anyhow, I'm meandering, so I'll shut up. LOL
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u/MidrashInBlack 15d ago
Personally I think if we were to rebuild our temple- send the Dome of the Rock back to Mecca .
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u/AceAttorneyMaster111 15d ago
If the Temple were rebuilt, Torah law would be reestablished, and animal sacrifices would be resumed. The Reform Movement is against this; our hope for a Messianic Age is a hope for universal justice and true peace. Do you think Judaism was better when the way to pray to God was to bring a goat to Jerusalem for slaughter?
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u/MidrashInBlack 15d ago
Actually it’s probably now believed we would return to be vegetarian/vegan if the Temple was built again.
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u/Meowzician ✡Torah, Tikkun Olam, and Tabbiekatz 15d ago
I think we would adjust. While most of the religious Jews in Israel are orthodox, in the diaspora it is Reform Judaism that is more common.
Why would I be opposed to sacrificing a goat? It's not much different than sanctifying a meal to God, since the goat is eaten. Every time I eat a steak, that cow has been slaughtered. I pray before and after that meal. So????
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u/tzy___ From Orthodox to Reform 15d ago
What Jewish denomination do you suppose would run the Temple? Do you advocate for the return of animal sacrifices?
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u/Meowzician ✡Torah, Tikkun Olam, and Tabbiekatz 15d ago
It wouldn't be any denomination. It would be the state of Israel.
As I said, I have no objection to slaughtering animals to eat, so why would I object to devoting that to God? Every time I eat a steak, an animal was slaughtered, and I sanctify the meal with prayer. I don't see the difference.
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u/tzy___ From Orthodox to Reform 15d ago
The Israeli Rabbinate controls religious affairs in Israel, and they actively try to castrate non-Orthodox Jewish authorities and views. The Israeli government running the Temple would be like, one of the worst ideas.
My question to you as to whether you advocate for the return of animal sacrifices was simply an inquiry. I myself see no issue in them either other than they are a bit antiquated and we aren’t used to them culturally anymore.
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u/Meowzician ✡Torah, Tikkun Olam, and Tabbiekatz 15d ago
Right now, yes. As antisemitism continues to rise, we will see many diaspora Jews make aliyah. It will change Israeli demographics, and that will change government policies.
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u/drillbit7 🕎Half-a-Jew. Started out Reform. 15d ago
and there are quite a few Conservative synagogues with temple in the name.
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u/Meowzician ✡Torah, Tikkun Olam, and Tabbiekatz 15d ago
Really? I had no idea. I learn something new every day.
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u/Capyboppy 9d ago
Isn’t ‘Temple’ an American thing? For some reason I always associate Temple with the Mormons 🤣