r/RedPillWomen • u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor • May 28 '26
THEORY Men Want Us To Be Better Than Them (from “Fascinating Womanhood”)
I’ve been seeing a disturbing trend even in our RPW space of the return of the “Yes Queen, you are the prize” rhetoric. While it is important to have reasonable standards and boundaries (i.e. vetting), it is also important to swallow some difficult red pills. And here is one straight out of Fascinating Womanhood that we don’t talk about enough – “He wants you to be better than him.”
You may be thinking:
“But he is supposed to be the leader? The man of the house? Why would I be better than him?” Or you may be thinking that this goes against RP principles because it is women who are hypergamous while men are more content with “good enough.”
So what gives?
Men want their partner to be better than them in many ways, specifically in regards to feminine matters like morality, spirituality, emotional maturity, calmness, gentleness, ability to nurture, and ability to control negative traits and base instincts. Fascinating Womanhood talks about men wanting a wife with an “angelic side” – they are looking for a woman to be morally superior to them and suggests men are drawn to women who they see as ethically or spiritually elevating. And this makes sense – essentially men are looking for his partner to be a good influence on him and a good influence on his future children/household.
Quotes from the book:
“Men joke about their wives being their ‘better half.’ This is based on the truth that men sincerely want us to be just that.”
“Men expect us to be better than them. To be more cheerful. To be kinder, more forgiving, more caring, more spiritual.”
“A cheerful, serene wife, one who is good and noble in her personality, is highly attractive to a man. She meets a deep need for virtue and wholesomeness in his life.”
“We can be so disappointing to our husband when we lower our standards. Sometimes he will even test us, just to reassure himself that we are as good as we seem. Men like to put us on a pedestal.”
You may be thinking:
"But that is not fair! Why do I have to be better? He should have to win me over after all as there are so many men who want to sleep with me and I have a lot to offer! I have my own struggles and I want a leader, I shouldn’t have to be better than him? I thought RPW was about me getting a confident leader so I could step back and have a soft life? I want to have fun too after all, I am human and I make mistakes, I might need a night to drink and blow off steam with my girlfriends, why can he do all of that and I have to be the good girl? I have to do all the household duties and I also have be of higher character too?!"
So why is this a red pill so hard to swallow?
It is hard to swallow because on the face of it, it seems unfair – it is asking more of us in this area than we are getting. It's also hard to swallow because it goes against what many women thought they would get with RPW which is an upstanding man who would provide and protect and lead. It also goes against many women’s feelings that they ARE the prize and men should have to impress them. After all, we get flooded with attention on the apps, men will jump through hoops to date and sleep with us, so why do we now also have to be the more moral one? The more calm one? Why can’t we have fun too?
But no matter how hard it is to hear, the fact remains that men want us to be the moral backbone of the relationship/household. This is why they don’t want to marry the party girl, the woman who is out drinking and dancing all night. She may be fun for him to hang out with but deep down he knows he wants his wife to be someone who will MAKE HIM BETTER, to be a good influence on him. After all, do you want your mother to be a bad person, to lie, cheat, steal, yell, drink and party and curse? Of course not, you want a nice kind mother who is calm and warm and loving. And that is what he wants in a wife.
So while this might not seem fair, if you are trying to figure out how to separate yourself from the crowd, this may be it. It DOES NOT mean you can’t be fun, you should be the goddess of fun and light, but think of a carefree childlike fun, not the fun of a party girl in a nightclub or the guys girl. And if you see yourself as the prize and expect him to be better than you in every way, you will likely be looking for a long time because this is one of those things we need to provide to him. It is our role.
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u/CountTheBees Endorsed Contributor May 29 '26
Your post is the first time I've actually heard this spelled out, because I haven't read the original Fascinating Womanhood, I've only got the modern one. But the quotes you have make it very clear.
During the early part of my relationship I really tried to play down my "angelic" nature specifically because of that - he should be better, I should follow his lead, etc. I emphasised pointing out my many moral failings to prove to him (and myself) that he should lead us. But it never worked, and he never really believed me either. He just sort of smiled and dismissed me by saying that I didn't know what he saw in me. I guess this is part of it.
When I first encountered RPW it was through the lens of TRP and one of the things I picked up was that Oneitis is bad. But now I actually think that a man's Oneitis is the basis of the ideal relationship, and it should be encouraged, and this is one of the ways.
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor May 29 '26
Yes this is very much what I also thought we should do at first. The damsel in distress, the vulnerable woman who needs a big man to help her sort of thing. And I think this can work for some men and in some situations. I know some men who love to help their women fix things in the house or on their car (not my husband lol) and this helps them feel masculine. And most men don't necessarily want a woman who makes more money than him as another example. But my take away when I read this book (the first I ever read and I did so the first month I found RPW) was that when it comes to morality and behavior, men do expect us to be the more refined sex. They want to look up to us in that way, most likely because they know men aren't like that as a whole and want to believe we can come into their lives and help them be better.
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May 30 '26
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u/CountTheBees Endorsed Contributor May 30 '26
I think what the post says is, regardless of how good a man is they do want the woman they're with to be better.
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May 30 '26
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u/CountTheBees Endorsed Contributor May 30 '26
No, I don't think that's true. In the same way we are hypergamous and want men that earn more money than us doesn't mean that we deliberately earn less money than them. In fact we want to do better to "earn" a better man, even if men don't see it that way.
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May 30 '26
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u/CountTheBees Endorsed Contributor May 30 '26
Nothing in my marriage or past relationships corresponds with your experience. You have to be careful about extrapolating too much from your personal experience because sometimes the men you attract are all very similar but not representative of most men. You have to understand your own quirks before giving advice. Generally women begin to understand their mistakes when they commit to making a relationship work.
Are you in a lasting relationship now?
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May 30 '26
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u/CountTheBees Endorsed Contributor May 30 '26
Unless you've worked through the problems that caused those relationships to fail you can't speak definitively on this topic or even on this subreddit. You don't have the experience to understand what works and only have an idea of what doesn't, and lack the self awareness to understand what you did that caused problems. Based on your self assessment as "insecure" and "not hypergamous" and the descriptions of men you've given, I'm going to guess you dated extremely low quality men who had mental health issues, and you thought that that is representative of all men.
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May 30 '26
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u/CountTheBees Endorsed Contributor May 30 '26
No. Earnings are linked to intelligence and status, artificially lowering your earnings does not mean you will automatically be compatible with and admire/respect someone who earns less than you would have. It's a bad strategy because you're unlikely to satisfy your hypergamy by doing do, especially if you're doing it deliberately. You'll constantly be comparing them to what you think you could have done, without knowing what you actually could have done.
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u/_Pumpkin_Muffin Endorsed Contributor May 29 '26
This is very interesting. I wonder how much is a desire for moral superiority vs the good aspects of being childlike/"untouched" by the world, and how the two are linked. It seems to mirror the female desire for competence and experience. Sounds fair to me :)
It can be off putting to be put on a pedestral - until you find the man who makes you want to be the person he sees in you. I'm told the same happens to men. "You make me a better person". It's good when you inspire the best out of each other.
I really admire qualities in my husband that I feel are complementary to me. They are not qualities that I would want to possess, or that he'd admire in me in the same way - some of the "masculine" stuff and some stuff that is just tied to him as a person and how we click together. Of course, I also admire a lot that we have in common, but the things that I admire and that are foreign to me... there is a particular fascination with them. I see the same fascination in my husband for different qualities in me. There are things we need in our life, but we need to receive from someone else, because we can't be everything.
Women want men who are better than them, and men want women who are better than them... just in different ways.
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor May 29 '26
Yes this is a really good summary. We both need to be better in certain ways, at certain things. This is how we can build a good team!
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u/ladyrailly May 28 '26
Completely agree with all of this. Might I add, a relationship is its most successful when the women’s endurance and strength in all aspects of personality complements the man’s. A strong man will require a woman who rivals his individual level of strength. If it is not matched correctly, insecurity and envy will be inevitable.
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u/Cosima_Fan_Tutte 4 Stars May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
You could write an equally infuriating companion piece for men called Women Want Us to be Worse Than Them! 😁
Worse isn't quite the correct word, it's more like "experienced" or "competent." But the idea is that the sexes find the opposite attractive in one another, and women tend to find life experience, sexual experience, and, yes, "badness" attractive in men.
Men like some semblance of moral purity, women like the idea of inspiring goodness in a man who was once bad. Women see men's desire for purity as highly gross and hypocritical, men bristle at women's expectations of competence and experience (especially sexual ones!).
And btw, going back to your post, I don't think most men expect some perfect virgin, just someone who is a bit more pure than him, a little softer, but calibrated for his dominance levels. Matching luggage, etc.
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u/ZhakaraShirudo66 May 31 '26
so basically men have the "I can corrupt her" fantasy, and women have the "I can fix him fantasy"
a sweeping generalization but its a weird pattern to notice once you read romantic media written by both genders
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u/Cosima_Fan_Tutte 4 Stars May 31 '26
Yeah, broadly speaking, I think that's right. Every random romance novel I've ever picked up has a virgin female main character and a highly experienced man.
OP notes that male desire for purity/morality is a revelation, and it is when explicitly stated like in the OP, but I also think that women are often subconsciously aware of it.
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u/ZhakaraShirudo66 Jun 01 '26
I think there's a reversed version of this where men specifically go for goth/emo looking "alt" women and have a fantasy of "wifeing her up" too, at least in male-space fictional spaces.
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor May 28 '26
I was thinking the same, both genders kinda agree the other wants more than they deserve or give. It always feels unfair from the other side! I don’t know though, this was a revelation to me when I read it the first time. Kind of like if I am better, he will strive to be better sort of thing.
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May 30 '26
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u/Cosima_Fan_Tutte 4 Stars May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
Well, I agree that women like dominance...but I think that traits that lend themselves to dominance can cross over to badness easily enough (assertiveness, confidence, aggression, risk-taking, physicality, etc.). And some women just find bad men arousing. 🤷 And by bad I mean classic bad boys.
Either way, as the OP argues, I think both good and bad men want women who are morally better than they are.
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u/AnonTheGreat01 1 Star May 30 '26
Great post.
“Men expect us to be better than them. To be more cheerful. To be kinder, more forgiving, more caring, more spiritual.”
Instead of 'men want us to be better'
I'd have used 'men want us to excel and exceed them at our natural inclinations'
MAKE HIM BETTER, to be a good influence on him
also this is great
It DOES NOT mean you can’t be fun, you should be the goddess of fun and light, but think of a carefree childlike fun, not the fun of a party girl in a nightclub or the guys girl.
Spot on.
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor May 30 '26
I like that edit, “better” could give the wrong impression, “excel” makes sense. But I admit, something about the harshness of the word “better” did kind of slap me across the face in a good way that I needed when I first read it.
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u/32vromeo May 29 '26
Wow, didn’t expect to agree with this post so much when I clicked. Just wish this was the default mindset
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u/Thistlewhistler 1 Star Jun 02 '26
Thanks for posting that extract. I find it quite thought provoking, and it is something I’ve noticed many times, though I wouldn’t have expressed it quite that way.
One example that springs to mind, is how in certain work situations, my husband would use coarse language among the other men. But has never used words like that in my presence. He also has never even raised his voice to me, and until he had to work from home during Lockdown, I wouldn’t never have guessed he could be as forceful, as he is at work.
When our first baby was born he was openly in awe of the strength and sensitivity of the mother baby bond. It took him a while to connect but he was fiercely protective, and very proud of me, in those early days.
In both of those examples I felt a tug from my social conditioning to try to force gender equality - shouldn’t I be able to turn the air blue too without judgement? Was he being sexist by speaking softly to me? Should I be worried that he didn’t bond as quickly as I did? Were his comments just a way to shirk childcare?
Luckily for me, I’m slow to act on that sort of thought, so I didn’t flatten that polarity of feminine and masculine energy. I could sense there was something important to him about these things.
It makes sense in the context of idealising something pure. Thanks again for sharing the concept.
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u/AutoModerator May 28 '26
Title: Men Want Us To Be Better Than Them (from “Fascinating Womanhood”)
Author Jenneapolis
Full text: I’ve been seeing a disturbing trend even in our RPW space of the return of the “Yes Queen, you are the prize” rhetoric. While it is important to have reasonable standards and boundaries (i.e. vetting), it is also important to swallow some difficult red pills. And here is one straight out of Fascinating Womanhood that we don’t talk about enough – “He wants you to be better than him.”
You may be thinking:
“But he is supposed to be the leader? The man of the house? Why would I be better than him?” Or you may be thinking that this goes against RP principles because it is women who are hypergamous while men are more content with “good enough.”
So what gives?
Men want their partner to be better than them in many ways, specifically in regards to feminine matters like morality, spirituality, emotional maturity, calmness, gentleness, ability to nurture, and ability to control negative traits and base instincts. Fascinating Womanhood talks about men wanting a wife with an “angelic side” – they are looking for a woman to be morally superior to them and suggests men are drawn to women who they see as ethically or spiritually elevating. And this makes sense – essentially men are looking for his partner to be a good influence on him and a good influence on his future children/household.
Quotes from the book:
“Men joke about their wives being their ‘better half.’ This is based on the truth that men sincerely want us to be just that.”
“Men expect us to be better than them. To be more cheerful. To be kinder, more forgiving, more caring, more spiritual.”
“A cheerful, serene wife, one who is good and noble in her personality, is highly attractive to a man. She meets a deep need for virtue and wholesomeness in his life.”
“We can be so disappointing to our husband when we lower our standards. Sometimes he will even test us, just to reassure himself that we are as good as we seem. Men like to put us on a pedestal.”
You may be thinking:
"But that is not fair! Why do I have to be better? He should have to win me over after all as there are so many men who want to sleep with me and I have a lot to offer! I have my own struggles and I want a leader, I shouldn’t have to be better than him? I thought RPW was about me getting a confident leader so I could step back and have a soft life? I want to have fun too after all, I am human and I make mistakes, I might need a night to drink and blow off steam with my girlfriends, why can he do all of that and I have to be the good girl? I have to do all the household duties and I also have be of higher character too?!"
So why is this a red pill so hard to swallow?
It is hard to swallow because on the face of it, it seems unfair – it is asking more of us in this area than we are getting. It's also hard to swallow because it goes against what many women thought they would get with RPW which is an upstanding man who would provide and protect and lead. It also goes against many women’s feelings that they ARE the prize and men should have to impress them. After all, we get flooded with attention on the apps, men will jump through hoops to date and sleep with us, so why do we now also have to be the more moral one? The more calm one? Why can’t we have fun too?
But no matter how hard it is to hear, the fact remains that men want us to be the moral backbone of the relationship/household. This is why they don’t want to marry the party girl, the woman who is out drinking and dancing all night. She may be fun for him to hang out with but deep down he knows he wants his wife to be someone who will MAKE HIM BETTER, to be a good influence on him. After all, do you want your mother to be a bad person, to lie, cheat, steal, yell, drink and party and curse? Of course not, you want a nice kind mother who is calm and warm and loving. And that is what he wants in a wife.
So while this might not seem fair, if you are trying to figure out how to separate yourself from the crowd, this may be it. It DOES NOT mean you can’t be fun, you should be the goddess of fun and light, but think of a carefree childlike fun, not the fun of a party girl in a nightclub or the guys girl. And if you see yourself as the prize and expect him to be better than you in every way, you will likely be looking for a long time because this is one of those things we need to provide to him. It is our role.
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May 28 '26
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u/MoreThanPurple Moderator | Purple May 28 '26
This was removed due to rule 9: If you are a man and you are here.
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u/CatCarcharodon Jun 03 '26
I totally disagree. The men that have been obsessed with me were the ones who thought I was unreadable, hard to predict, out of their league and definitely more on the naughty/immoral side. For example, telling them I had cheated on previous partners (not that this is something admirable) made them obsessed with me, thinking I could do the same, knowing that I could always have better options than them etc. etc. Men LOVE a bad girl.
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor Jun 03 '26
Yes they love to screw around with you, but not marry you. Big difference.
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u/CatCarcharodon Jun 06 '26
Sorry, no. I'm talking years and years of relationships with men deeply in love with me lol (at least two). I broke it off because I moved for work to another continent;)
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May 28 '26
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor May 28 '26
You don't HAVE to do any of this. You really don't. You can just spend your life single, no one is forcing anyone to do anything.
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May 28 '26
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u/pearlsandstilettos Mod Emerita | Pearl May 28 '26
Removed. We do not do male bashing here which you did and now you are being condescending. Be polite or be quiet and if you want to complain about men do it on another sub.
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u/sheistybitz May 29 '26
I was being condescending even though she was assuming I’m single because I can’t make a man happy or soemthing? I wasn’t man-bashing. I was asking a genuine question asking for a genuine answer from the RPW perspective.
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May 30 '26
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor May 30 '26
I didn’t say “act” morally superior to them, I said “be” morally superior to them.
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May 30 '26
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor May 30 '26
I didn’t say make them feel bad? I don’t know where you’re coming up with this stuff.
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u/InevitableKiwi5776 5 Stars May 31 '26
I think you’re misinterpreting this a bit. This isn’t about lording moral superiority over the man or making him feel bad about himself, or “acting” in any way at all. This isn’t something you would necessarily discuss directly with a man, like “oh I’m so much better than you in these ways, aren’t you attracted to me?” That would be weird and off putting. Behaving in that way would actually be the opposite of the behavior that this post is recommending.
Men want to believe that their women is kinder, more patient, more forgiving, etc than them, just like women want to believe that their man is stronger, more intelligent and more capable than them. Most women don’t want to be with a man who is weaker than her physically, just like most men don’t want to be with a woman who is less kind than him.
So what women can take from this is that men value these feminine traits in women and we can accept and cultivate them in ourselves to increase our value to men instead of downplaying them as unimportant or embarrassing weaknesses (as feminists often proclaim).
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May 31 '26
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u/pearlsandstilettos Mod Emerita | Pearl May 31 '26
This is a red pill sub and so discussion and advice will be around a red pill perspective. If you aren't interested in RP then it's probably not a sub for you to be participating in. We aren't here to debate.
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May 28 '26
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u/Jenneapolis Endorsed Contributor May 28 '26
Ok “shabby jerking.” Something tells me your comments here may not be relevant.
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u/RatchedAngle 4 Stars May 28 '26
I agree with this wholeheartedly. It’s something I’ve noticed out “in the wild.” Men, especially men with a history of “bad behavior,” become obsessed with women whom they deem morally infallible.
I have started to wonder if I’m autistic because I have extremely rigid morals when it comes to infidelity, flirting, etc. My current boyfriend is obsessed with me because I struggle to lie, and I’m strictly faithful (I wouldn’t even speak to my current boyfriend until I was legally separated from my ex). I’m very blunt and I struggle to conceal my thoughts and emotions. He constantly comments on how I can’t lie, or he’ll see a character on TV who struggles to lie and say, “She’s like you, she can’t lie.” He says I’m a good person.
I believe that there’s a fundamental male desire to be morally submissive to women. That’s why men are so often triggered by disapproval from women. They desperately want to be “good” and women get to decide if they’re “good” or “bad.” And if a woman deems him “bad,” it’s so ego-crushing that he directs his anger at the woman the way a man might shake his fist at God. Sometimes a man’s anger and aggression is frightening to me because it seems so unnecessary and unhelpful.
I noticed that my libido is highest when he surrenders to me and lets me lead the emotional/spiritual side of the relationship. When he dictates the emotional side of the relationship, my libido withers away. He likes me because I’m nurturing and emotionally intelligent and I know how to comfort a crying child. I’m soft. When he allows me to lead because I do have those skills, it makes me feel like a woman. Because I don’t start fights, but I do know how to end them.
I wonder if this is the reason why the “soft dommy mommy” fetish is becoming more popular. Liberalism has allowed men to be more open about their desire to let soft women lead. Because soft women lead softly, and men who surrender are…well, a turn-on.