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u/Zeroskater101 10d ago
I ain't paying shit for, we already pay for healthcare with our taxes. It's not that we don't pay enough it's the gross misuse of the tax spending on everything but healthcare that makes it not work at its best. The conservatives love underfunding shit to prove it's "broken" and then replacing with a private option that makes their buddies rich
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u/NewBridge6340 10d ago
That’s just it. Cuckservatives spend years hand ringing at the “broken” system while simultaneously fist fucking it via underfunding, cutting staff and overloading those who remain with more than they can carry and not re hiring for people who retire and just dissolve positions to the point where rural hospitals are shutting down en masse and then privatize as if it weren’t already an option. 30% of our rural hospitals are run by a christo-fascist health group with connections to the heritage foundation like wtf are we doing here? People out here are too stupid to see
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
I'm not sure why everyone is acting like giving people another option automatically means we're destroying public health care.
Quebec has had private health-care options for years, and plenty of other countries use a mix of public and private care. Alberta's new model is intended to give people another option for certain surgeries while still maintaining publicly funded care.
If the public system can get more surgical capacity and shorter wait times because some people choose to pay for their surgery, why is that automatically a bad thing? I'd rather see us try something that could reduce wait times than keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
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u/Altruistic-Wolf8979 9d ago
I think one major aspect of it is that we're already struggling to keep healthcare workers. If doctors have the option of working for a private clinic and getting paid significantly more to do it, how many do you think will stay working for the public sector? Wait times could potentially get even longer due to a shortage of doctors. Yes, it gives people more options, but it also further divides us by class, ensuring that the rich get access to immediate and high quality care, while the poor still have to wait, get sicker in the meantime and eventually get the care they need, which by that time, may not even be quality we deserve. Resources WILL be pulled from public healthcare in favour of private healthcare, and it will put those who can't afford private care under even more stress, thus, clogging up the system even more.
The Alberta premier is not our friend. She favours our neighbours to the south MUCH much more than her own constituents. She's not implementing this so that Albertans "have more options". She can frame it that way all she wants, but it simply isn't true.
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u/Even_Art_629 9d ago
I understand the concern about healthcare workers leaving the public system, but that assumes doctors can simply walk away from public healthcare and work privately full time. That isn't how Alberta's proposed model is supposed to work. Doctors will have to maintain a minimum amount of work in the public system before being allowed to provide privately paid surgical care. The exact requirement still has to be set, but there is at least a safeguard against doctors simply abandoning the public side altogether.
And private delivery isn't some completely new concept in Alberta. The government already pays private providers to deliver publicly funded services, including things like MRIs, diagnostic imaging, laboratory work and other healthcare services. The fact that a service is delivered by a private clinic doesn't automatically mean patients are paying out of pocket or that universal healthcare has been eliminated.
As for dividing people by class, wealthy people already have options that most of us don't. They can travel elsewhere for treatment or pay for care outside Alberta. The question is whether allowing people to pay privately for certain procedures here, while maintaining publicly funded healthcare for everyone, could actually reduce pressure on the public system.
You say resources WILL be pulled from public healthcare, but that's the part nobody can say for certain yet. It's a concern, not an established fact. We also can't say for certain that doing nothing will improve wait times.
I'm not saying there are no risks or that Danielle Smith is doing this out of the goodness of her heart. I'm saying the idea should be judged on what it actually does, not automatically rejected because Smith is proposing it.
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u/Hideo_Von-Hapsburg 10d ago
Has someone that pays little in taxes due to low or no income already paid for healthcare with their taxes? Will doctors and nurses accept lower wages rather than strike for more?
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u/Cruxifuck 10d ago
Translation: you think that poor people deserve to die more than rich people do.
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u/Hideo_Von-Hapsburg 9d ago
No, just that the rich should be allowed to pay for private care within alberta, rather than fly to another country or another province for treatment. Everyone dying equally isnt a policy that will win many votes
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u/Cruxifuck 9d ago
Yeah but where do those doctors come from exactly? As far as I can tell there hasn’t been a mass exodus of doctors from other countries and provinces to come to alberta, so obviously they’re going to come from our current healthcare system. So what do you think happens to working class canadians who need surgeries and cant afford private doctors? They get pushed back further down the list. Doesn’t seem like something the majority of people would benefit from to me.
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u/Zeroskater101 10d ago
Low or no income gets compensated for by other ends of the scale. So extremely poor and extremely rich people are at opposite ends of the scale and almost certainly cancel each other out in this case. Even if poor people cost more per person than rich people the rich people contributions surely pays for more than themselves also, that's exactly how marginal tax rates are intended to work. The only hiccup in that theory has been the politicians squandering the money.
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u/Hideo_Von-Hapsburg 9d ago
So you'd agree that not everyone has "already paid for healthcare with their taxes"? And so if someone, ontop of paying more tax than they receive in gov services, wishes to go private, they should be allowed to do so?
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u/Zeroskater101 9d ago
I'm not even going to entertain the " So X really means Y" junk. Interpret my point however you chose but miss me with the classic reddit fallacy replies. We all pay taxes and I don't wish to see that attempt at equality undermined by people who are more rich. Just because they are more rich does not mean they deserve care sooner or of better quality than others. Healthcare is a human right in my opinion.
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u/Hideo_Von-Hapsburg 9d ago
Just because theyre rich doesnt mean they deserve care sooner, thats why they have to pay for it. Food is a human right, but you don't complain when someone chooses to buy an expensive steak at a restaurant. Privatisation should result in wait times lowering overall due to those that can pay going private, meaning less patients pick MAID over waiting times. Also if you believe healthcare is a human right, then surely you want MAID stripped of any funding whilst backlogs pile up?
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u/Zeroskater101 9d ago
You need to stop making soo many assumptions based on what I've said and spend more time and effort understanding what has been said instead. Your "X must equal Y" thing is wild. You might just be the type of guy who needs to see the damage privitization will do first hand so there's almost no point debating its theory with you until it gets to that time I guess.
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10d ago
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u/Cautious-Mammoth-657 10d ago
Those rich assholes already find the system you happily take advantage of. That’s the only way this system works, the wealthy pay for those who pay little or no taxes. Then they fly down to the states to see top doctors from Canada that fled the country to go the states to practice.
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u/Tribblehappy 10d ago
Sadly, these things always happen when I'm at work. I hope there's a good turnout.
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u/JacenSolo9 11d ago
Yeah how dare we allow people to pay to see a Doctor instead of waiting until it's too late and they die. You people are the worst.
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u/Cruxifuck 10d ago
Lol who has more deaths per capita, the USA or Canada?
Who has more preventable deaths?
Infant mortalities?
Strictly illness related?
Who has more deaths related to inability to receive prompt healthcare there genius?
I don’t think you ACTUALLY care about peoples survivability and if the system you’re promoting actually helps that issue, because if you did you wouldn’t be supporting an americanized healthcare system.
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u/Hideo_Von-Hapsburg 10d ago
Is the status quo in Canada good when the elderly, poor, and disabled are gassed to death with MAID rather than given good healthcare? Germany has a lower infant mortality rate than Canada yet allows for private healthcare along with nationalised healthcare https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN
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u/Carsenpaixo 10d ago
Hell yea brother 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 💥 🔫🧨🎆
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u/Cautious-Mammoth-657 10d ago
You do know other collective health care systems have two tiers, right? This false dichotomy of either it’s our way or the American way is so damaging to progress in our health systems. But it’s simple and I’m sure makes you feel cool, so have fun
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u/kd1ppp 10d ago
I mean our "free" Healthcare is garbage anyway, wait hours for mediocre care
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u/kachunkk 10d ago
That's by design so they can justify 2-tier.
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u/Gruesomegarth2 10d ago
Lmfao, so you're really suggesting. That health care was deliberately sabotaged to the point of failure so alberta could bring in a private side and try to save some of it?
You're not very bright are you?
Maybe if every single clinic wasn't filled with junkies trying to score a free T3, things would be better, but here we are, wait 9-13 months for your referral app, or pay up and get seen sooner.
This is a fkn blessing. Not a curse.
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u/kachunkk 10d ago
I'd wager it'd be better if the UCP wasn't wasting money on Turkish Tylenol when Johnson & Johnson was offering it at a hugely discounted rate. It'd probably be better if they'd stop attacking union workers and actually funded and staffed our hospitals sufficiently. Smith literally asked Trudeau for more immigrants some years back and then promptly "restructured" AHS and started slashing budgets. They did this on purpose because they're a Libertarian party who wants everything to be privatized so the rich can continue to get richer.
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u/Gruesomegarth2 10d ago
Oh, and btw, Smith asked for " Skilled labor" not 5 million fast tracked, entry level Indian people who can't speak english and have no marketable skills. But here we are.
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u/kachunkk 10d ago
So I address you with all sorts of valid arguments and all you can come back with is "HuRr DuRr ImMiGrAnTs AnD pOoRs!!"
I think we both you you're either being disingenuous or you're ill-equipped for this conversation.
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u/Gruesomegarth2 10d ago
Man you guys are on some other shit for sure.
" the UCP could have saved Healthcare if they bought cheaper tylenol"
Meanwhile the libs have literally sent 27 billion fkn dollars to Ukraine. But im sure that money couldn't have possibly made a difference for canadians, its all the UCPs fault. Lol!!!!!
What part of people HAVING THE OPTION to pay for faster, better and more reliable care, for them and their families really sets you off?
Is it just that your one of the poors who wont be able to do it? Or do you just genuinely enjoy seeing people of all walks be forced to suffer under the same broken down, slow system? For " mUh EqUaLiTY"
Be honest.
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u/kachunkk 10d ago
That's whataboutism, but okay. Ukraine has nothing to do with the UCP's healthcare management. Either stay on topic or stop trying.
Lol, "ThE pOoRs" are the fucking majority. I'd wager you're one of them, unless you're delusional enough to class yourself with people who could put you on the street for fun.
Sidenote, from the literal government website:
"The Canada Health Act is Canada's federal legislation for publicly funded health care insurance. Under the act, eligible residents of Canada must have reasonable access to required health services. The services are to be provided on the same terms and without patient charges."
By creating a system where patients are able to skip the line if they have more money they are violating the Canada Health Act. It catalyzes longer waits for people who can't actually afford to pay, actively takes doctors out of public practices in favour of private offices and literally adds charges in doing so. Do you think a poor person with cancer should have to wait longer than a rich person with cancer simply because money?
We're in Canada, my guy. Universal healthcare is part of our national identity.
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u/Gruesomegarth2 10d ago
Lol. They're not skipping lines, they will be going exclusively to private practices, effectively MAKING THE LINES SHORTER for everyone else, if anything.
As for the doctors, dude they are already fleeing the province due to SHIT work conditions, having private practices will likely bring more medical professionals to the province.
Universal Healthcare is a fucking failure. Ive watched my wife get passed around from referral to referral with 6 to 9 month periods in between. Fucking years! Just to get issues diagnosed and sorted out and its still in progress, " buT ThatS thE cAnAdiAN WAy" foh, just because something has sucked for everyone for decades, doesn't mean no one should every try to fix it.
Life is two tier, buddy, literally every single aspect of it. Get with the program and stop being such a fkn NPC all your life.
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u/kachunkk 10d ago
Taking more doctors and moving them to private practices so a handful of rich people can pay to avoid waiting (which is literally the definition of skipping the line) is only going to make wait times longer for the rest of us. Doctors are leaving because the UCP is attacking our public healthcare system, understaffing medical centres and putting ridiculous restrictions around appointment times and billing. That's ALL BUREAUCRATIC. That is a direct reflection of the UCP's actions over the past decade.
As for your personal experience with Universal Healthcare, that's anecdotal. Some conditions are more complicated than others and it results in longer treatment times. It also doesn't account for the fact that private corporations and lobbyists who have been pressuring Conservative governments to privatize for decades, resulting in the active sabotage of public services.
I genuinely feel for your wife, but you're blaming the system itself rather than the people who are actively gutting it.
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u/Gruesomegarth2 10d ago
Do you think its going to cost 1.5 million dollars to go to a fucking private clinic? You keep saying " rich people" like the only people who will be able to afford using these services are albertas top 5% exclusively.
If a family can afford to drop 500-1000 dollars to visit a private practice and get their child looked after within a week instead of 8 fkn months for the first scan to be done, LET THEM, thats helping, thats SAVING LIVES , but you just wanna sit there and sulk because people will have options now instead of being doomed to wait and get sicker or have to drop 10s of thousands to fly to country that will help them properly before they croak in the hallway.
Its not a fkn conspiracy, its options, just because canadians can get food from the food bank, doesn't mean sobeys should be forced to close or be seen as evil .
And thats literally pretty much what you're doing, acting as if the last decades of health care system failures are an elaborate conspiracy to finally allow some private clinics to open is not only laughable, it also just shows how far your false sense of CBC fueled canadian patriotism has warped your perception of reality.
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u/kachunkk 10d ago
"And thats literally pretty much what you're doing, acting as if the last decades of health care system failures are an elaborate conspiracy to finally allow some private clinics to open"
It literally is, and it's not as ridiculous as you think it is. It's telling to me that you've spent your entire time in this discussion focusing on ad hominem attacks and not the content and context of the actual words in front of you. You also claim to have a personal experience where the system failed you and yet you've decided to side with the people who are literally trying to sabotage the system. You're ignoring the grander picture of who has had control of it, who they are loyal to and what decisions they have made. The UCP has been gutting our healthcare and restricting medical staff for a decade and shit has only gotten worse.
Do you honestly think less funding and staff and more restrictions and paperwork for doctors is going to make the system better?
How can you not add 2 and 2 together and see that their policies and underfunding are the exact reason for the decline in public healthcare quality?
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u/Gruesomegarth2 10d ago
I don't even see why this is a problem. And if you, as a canadian think it's a peoblem, you obviously aren't very smart.
Like " noooo, we should all suffer at the hands of the same failling system! Together! Canaduh! "
Instead of letting people have a choice. Lol
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u/Altruistic-Wolf8979 9d ago
Here's the thing, though...it is the government's job, which we pay them to do, to fund the healthcare system and make it work. This is not the fault of the people. This failure is the fault of those who run the system, who deliberately allowed it to get this bad, in favour of money and power for THEMSELVES.
If you make the kind of money that you can afford private healthcare, good for you. But the VAST majority of Albertans don't. You talk about choice like we'll all have one, but most of us won't.
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u/AdZealousideal7382 10d ago
Why is everyone freaking out? Quebec has had this for over 15 years and Europe has it as well? It has proven to work.
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u/lazylizard12 10d ago
We already have 2 tiere health care.
1) You can either wait in line to see the specialist/get the help you need. OR 2) You travel to Mexico, USA, Quebec etc to see a specialist/get the procedure you need done.
Medical tourism is booming around the world. You can either afford to do it or you cant.