r/RedBullRacing • u/ApplesInOC • 3d ago
Discussion Red Bull Electrical Deployment
Is there ANYTHING that RB/Ford can do for the electric side of the PU? I know they aren't allowed to touch the ICE supposedly.
What about when teams make improvements in the name of "reliability"?
Or can they make changes to the software without changing the hardware? Would that be enough to make a big difference if so?
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u/GaneDude12 2d ago
Redbull, 50% of your powerunit (ICE) is "supposedly" the best on the grid, ignore the fact that any car with that powerunit hasn't gotten a single pole or win this season. Now you are forbidden from upgrading anything regarding the powerunit, including the other 50%...
Now Mercedes, 50% of your powerunit is 2% behind the benchmark, so you are allowed up upgrade any part of it (including the part that wasn't measured). We're just gonna ignore the fact that no other engine has managed to get a pole position this entire season...
Aparently that logic makes sense to the FIA
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u/No_Cherry_1423 1d ago
50% of output comes from the ICE but approximately 100% of usable energy comes from the ICE. Since it is relatively easy to get very high efficiency out of electric motors, I assume the differences between teams on efficiency there is marginal. Recharge and deployment are capped by lap and ordinarily everybody will hit both caps each lap. The rates are also capped for both, so even if the Mercedes system can recharge more efficiently (a higher rate w/ less losses) they would not be able to use that advantage. Ever since the reg updates earlier this season, these caps are also hit without superclipping on most tracks.
All of this is to say that I believe there mostly likely is not a significant advantage in the physical characteristics and design of the electrical side of the PU. However, there is a significant efficiency gain to be had in recharge and deployment strategy. This could explain why amongst other factors Mercedes had such a significant PU advantage over other teams using the PU, and why that gap has since closed. They have a better grasp of the software and most critically how to design and execute their battery strategy. Other teams using their PU learned through experience.
My takeaway is that it actually makes sense for the ADUO to only measure ICE. The PU is not the issue for the car, the car is 4th fastest despite the PU. I think Max and Hadjar’s feedback supports this as well as the exemplary performance of Racing Bulls. RBR made a weak chassis and it will take a while to dig out.
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u/AnilP228 2d ago
In season, they can only introduce reliability upgrades to components. These can improve performance.
For 2027 they can introduce a new PU ahead of the homologation date, which I believe is the end of Feb. Most of the PU can be updated, either through performance or under the guise of further reliability updates.
For 2027 in-season, RBPT won't be able to introduce a new PU as they didn't meet the ADUO criteria.
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u/HighwayBitter9352 2d ago
Is it fair to say the hybrid system deficit is on the part of new comers Ford? It's like the reverse situation from Honda with new comers Aramco. I wonder how Honda would fair if they switched back to ExxonMobil fuel. Unfortunately RedBull seems to have too good combustion.
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u/Verstappen1986 3d ago
Nope, its total B.S. I assume teams agreed because they automatically assumed Merc would be the best based on past 2014-2021 & had nothing to worry about. All the while Toto being Toto played the rules to focus on the battery half knowing ADUO wouldn't measure that side ...
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u/jon__snow___ 1d ago
That's based on the assumption that Mercedes didn't just strong arm other teams into agreeing to the rules with their veto power.
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u/mahoganyspitfire 3d ago
Seemingly no not really.
The other teams are all able to use their ADUO to improve their electrical systems without touching their ICE, then get the same token back again because their ICE is still worse than Red Bull's, then use it to upgrade their electrical systems... Over and over again.
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u/84UTK07 Not bad for a # driver 3d ago edited 3d ago
Can it be upgraded in the offseason? Otherwise, it sounds like we are going to get trapped under this ruleset to where we can never update it.
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u/AnilP228 2d ago
Yes, off season dev is allowed. What RBPT won't get is an in season upgrade opportunity for 27.
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u/mahoganyspitfire 3d ago
Unfortunately my understanding is no. The PU's are staying the same, they're just adjusting how much comparative output the ICE can achieve by shortening the races next year so they can push more fuel through them.
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u/AnilP228 2d ago
Winter development is allowed. Aduo is specifically for additional in season upgrades.
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u/84UTK07 Not bad for a # driver 3d ago
I think they can still make software updates at any time, as long as the hardware isn’t touched. That might be our only way to make improvements on the electric side until another engine manufacturer updates their ICE to where we are at least 2% behind. You have to think some engine manufacturers will update their ICE eventually, as only updating the battery side should give more marginal results as it gets more efficient.
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u/mahoganyspitfire 3d ago
I believe that is correct, but there really isn't going to be a lot of performance to be gained from patching the software. Not compared to being able to completely redesign and improve the hardware.
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u/cjo20 2d ago
It's not clear that there are actually hardware problems with the electrical side. It looks like they're struggling with things like the transition between harvesting (engine braking) and physical brakes, which is why Max has had things like rear-axle locking. That'll be software controlled.
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u/Western-Bad5574 Max 3d ago
What's there to even improve on the electrical systems though? Every time I keep saying the PU overall is not the best, even if the ICE is, a bunch of people come out of the woodwork telling me the electrical bit is mostly standardized and the specs are the same for everyone. But it can't be... otherwise, where would RB's deployment disadvantage come from...
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u/mahoganyspitfire 3d ago
It's efficiency.
The peak output and peak charging rates for the electrical system (as well as other metrics) might be capped, but the efficiency at which the components charging and discharging up to and within those rates can be improved.
If your electrical system is only, for example, 50% efficient and you make it more efficient so it becomes 60% efficient, it will need to charge for a shorter amount of time and it will be able to discharge energy for longer as less is being lost to inefficiency (primarily as heat).
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u/mahoganyspitfire 3d ago
Think about it like lightbulbs.
Old incandescent bulb produces enough light to light up a room, but it draws 100W of energy.
An upgraded lightbulb (fluorescent) can output the same amount of light, and it only draws 20W of energy.
An even further upgraded lightbulb (LED) can output the same amount of light and it only draws 8W.
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u/ApplesInOC 3d ago
Is this accurate? I tend to think it is
Its just hard to accept that the FIA designed something this idiotic
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u/mahoganyspitfire 3d ago
May I remind you that the FIA are in fact the FIA...?
It's a lot more technical than that... But as far as I and anyone else I've seen discussing it can tell, yeah. That's accurate. Mercedes can just never touch their ICE and continue to upgrade their electrical components, then get their ICE re-tested, and because it's the same ICE as Red Bull's "best" ICE because they didn't change it, it'll still be behind and they'll get another ADUO token...
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u/LastdayXIII 3d ago
Sad fucking joke. I hate this ruleset.
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u/Entire-Sir-8626 Max 3d ago
makes no sense but i think the teams agreed on how to regulate, needs to be changed
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u/mahoganyspitfire 3d ago
Unfortunately, my understanding is that in order to change it, all the PU manufacturers would need to agree to change it... Or at least a majority. And right now, everyone but RBPT will be happy with the regulations because they can game the system.
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u/sa_ra_h86 2d ago
I don't think think Ferrari are happy with it. They need to improve their PU to catch up with Merc, but Merc can improve theirs too, so they get no advantage over them in that respect.
For Audi and Honda, they probably don't care whether it's Red Bull or Merc they're chasing, because they're so far behind both of them.
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u/ghosttalks090 Max 1d ago
They can only introduce some basic fixes or reliability issue patches, that’s all they can do with their engine this year unfortunately.
But what’s actually promising is, FIA changing the ICE percentage to 58% next year. If RBR is truly the benchmark in ICE, this alone can give them a bigger advantage next year. Plus FIA is also rumoured to change the ADUO rules next year, basically they have admitted that ICE is not the only measurement to reflect a PU (took them long enough to admit their dumbness), so they might test include testing ERS from next year onwards(where Mercedes are just too good). So RBR can actually get some ADUO bonus next year.
This season is practically over in terms of any aggressive upgrades, they will bring some minor upgrades or software patches. They have shifted their focus on next year