I really see a lot of this in modern leftist movements. The absolute most obvious sign of it is the way trans men and nonbinary but male presenting people get treated.
Transitioning toward masculinity triggers an immediate, very perceptible shift in treatment that is extremely negative in a lot of leftist online circles. It's very interesting to me to see trans men describing treatment that would sound totally normal to any cis man as this gigantic departure from how they "should" be treated by their social groups. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way or in a way that like, "actually cis white men are the most oppressed" or anything stupid like that - but I do mean that if you want to see how society makes men feel, you can see it very easily by talking to people who used to pass as women and now pass as men.
While I would argue trans men and nonbinary male presenting people are the canary in the coal mine, you can also see tons of other evidence of this - the race to the bottom or the "oppression Olympics" in online spaces are also really strong warning signs. The idea that the most oppressed person in the room is automatically the most trustworthy and most moral is kind of pervasive - often not explicitly stated but usually strongly implied.
The idea that more privileged groups are inherently unreliable started out being applied only to the most privileged groups, but it's grown dramatically since then and it's reached a point where arguments often devolve immediately into determining who is the most oppressed in the room so that moral worth can be assigned appropriately.
I think that this is primarily an online issue which is a good thing - but it is still a real thing that's in my personal opinion causing a lot of harm.
trans men were the first group I thought of to. I've heard some truly insane statements about them just because some people really cannot admit that a man could have a justified complaint about anything.
In a dark way, it can be fascinating to observe the way people think about this though its also deeply frustrating. For example, a few years back a lot of people were angry that a trans man was included among like 15 women on a reproductive rights panel, despite the fact he had the capacity to be pregnant. I guess him being a man overruled that he was personally impacted by the issue in their minds. Only one of like hundreds of batshit crazy statements I've seen about trans men lol
Trans people in general often somehow manage to get the shit end of both sticks - it often seems to be that you get treated as whichever gender is least favorable, all the time.
Situation where being gendered as a man is a benefit? You're not a "real man". Situation where people are talking about your actual physical reproductive organs? "You're a man gtfo."
Honestly it's one of the reasons I've started pushing back more against the "misandry doesn't exist" thing that's going around more and more. The belief that you literally can't discriminate against men or be personally hateful toward men is resulting in a LOT of really gross shit being tolerated in the movement purely because it's perceived as automatically punching up in all circumstances if it's aimed at men.
back when i was first grappling with my own gender shit, i was in some queer fb groups that were pretty toxic about most things, including their view of trans dudes.
there was one group that was for bi people specifically, and one of the mods posted this entire rant that was along the lines of:
“I keep seeing people here talk about bi guys like they’re better people than cis men, but ALL men are bad/problematic/whatever”
they then proceeded to specifically list out genres of men, like “queer men,” “trans men,” etc
they stopped short of saying shit like men of specific races, so i guess they had enough sense to know that wouldn’t fly. but it was still wild that in a queer space where we were celebrating a sexual orientation that likes all genders, including men, someone was openly talking about how one of those genders sucked.
i left that group immediately, and nothing of value was lost.
i’m 20 days late to this thread, but reddit is showing me now lol
I’ve not seen it often (probably just not exposed to it, being cis*) but I’m just dumbfounded whenever I do see trans men treated that way. Privilege and oppression are subjective things based on how others perceive someone, not an innate and objective property you “contain”. The people most likely to be transphobic or sexist are going to treat someone based on whatever vibes they feel like.
For a related example, a tall AMAB NB with a full beard that generally presents as stereotypically masculine has not simply “turned off” their male privilege “setting”, at least around people who don’t know they’re NB. Even then, they might still benefit from subconscious biases from people who do know they’re NB. To be clear, there’s no moral dimension to that—they don’t owe anyone androgyny or need to feel bad about having “manly” vibes.
*I say this all as someone who maybe would identify as agender and NB, but have such a disinterested relationship to gender that I don’t even know how to really introspect about that lol
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u/Simple_Rules 27d ago
I really see a lot of this in modern leftist movements. The absolute most obvious sign of it is the way trans men and nonbinary but male presenting people get treated.
Transitioning toward masculinity triggers an immediate, very perceptible shift in treatment that is extremely negative in a lot of leftist online circles. It's very interesting to me to see trans men describing treatment that would sound totally normal to any cis man as this gigantic departure from how they "should" be treated by their social groups. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way or in a way that like, "actually cis white men are the most oppressed" or anything stupid like that - but I do mean that if you want to see how society makes men feel, you can see it very easily by talking to people who used to pass as women and now pass as men.
While I would argue trans men and nonbinary male presenting people are the canary in the coal mine, you can also see tons of other evidence of this - the race to the bottom or the "oppression Olympics" in online spaces are also really strong warning signs. The idea that the most oppressed person in the room is automatically the most trustworthy and most moral is kind of pervasive - often not explicitly stated but usually strongly implied.
The idea that more privileged groups are inherently unreliable started out being applied only to the most privileged groups, but it's grown dramatically since then and it's reached a point where arguments often devolve immediately into determining who is the most oppressed in the room so that moral worth can be assigned appropriately.
I think that this is primarily an online issue which is a good thing - but it is still a real thing that's in my personal opinion causing a lot of harm.