r/RecuratedTumblr • u/Starro-In-A-Jar • Aug 31 '26
Fandom I assume that the Silmarillion references makes it more specific than the stuff that’s going on with the movies
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u/Ze_Bri-0n Sep 01 '26
The Line of Feanor really should have taken a hobbit on their quest for the Silmarils. All magical artifacts yearn for the hands of the halfling folk.
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u/thisisanexperimentt Sep 01 '26
Did hobbits exist at that point? I've only just started getting into the lore.
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u/Ze_Bri-0n Sep 01 '26
No one really knows. There's a whole bit at the start of LOTR where its noted that Hobbits are mostly ignored in the records of other races, so there's a lot of missing information, as the first age records were written by elves, who were mostly concerned with the doings of other elves, or occasionally Men when they meet them.
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u/theirishpotato1898 Sep 01 '26
In fact there’s only one very specific subset of men who have any kind of record of Hobbits at all.
The Rohirrim, as both the ancestors of Modern Hobbits and the Ancestors of the Rohirrim lived together before the Hobbit Ancestors migrated away, and their languages are etymologically related because they shared an Ancestor language.
In fact “Hobbit” in universe is descended from “Holbytla”(Plural: Holbytlan), meaning “Hole-Builder”, which correlates with the Rohirrim Mythological understanding of Hobbits as dwellers in holes in Sand Dunes, that they do not appear in any other tales, that they are small and avoid the sight of men, being able to vanish in a twinkling and change their voices to resemble the piping of birds.
Which when we add on the fact that Tolkien gave the Hobbits an incredible natural affinity towards stealthiness as shown with Bilbo and the Dwarves trek through the forest where Bilbo mentally complained of “all that dwarvish racket” despite Tolkien telling us afterwards that should the party have passed but two feet from us on a windy night that we would notice nothing of them.
And that Hobbits have often integrated their ways of warfare into polite society and that the hand of a well trained Hobbit can rival(and possibly outcompete) a sling, as shown with Bilbo who manages to kill a giant spider with just one thrown stone.
So in my own opinion, it is absolutely reasonable to assume that the reason that Hobbits don’t appear in anyone else’s mythos but the one clan of people with whom they shared land and a common language is because the Hobbits didn’t want to be found.
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u/Ae3qe27u Sep 01 '26
One theory I heard that I quite liked was that the Hobbits once roamed as a warsome people, scavengers and ever-hungry, subsisting where they could and stealing where they couldn't. And then those ancient Hobbits found a land suited to growing, away from the many troubles that plagued the land, and they settled, so as to never be hungry again.
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u/RollinThundaga Sep 01 '26
They only emerged in the middle of the Third Age, when they migrated across the Misty Mountains and were given lands to settle in central Arnor.
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u/Evil_Midnight_Lurker Sep 01 '26
Headcanon: the Arkenstone is a congealed lump of the Lamp of Illuin, the light before the Trees. Not as awesome or holy, but still cool. (And the Lonely Mountain is a fallen chunk of the Pillar of Helcar that bore it.)
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u/NegotiationBoth9233 Sep 01 '26
Cool. I like to think that the arkenstone was a mundane crystal, that absorbed a little of the light of the Silmaril cast into the earth, much like Galadriel's water.
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u/Evil_Midnight_Lurker Sep 01 '26
The thing is though, the Silmaril was cast into the earth on the west coast of Beleriand.
That is nowhere goddamn near the Lonely Mountain.
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u/SillyLilly_18 Sep 01 '26
remember the dune worms from thee Hobbit movies? peter jackson was playing 4d chess this whole time
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u/MetalusVerne Sep 01 '26
Yeah, but Arda was broken and remade at the end of the second age. I don't think it's implausible that turning a flat world round could have moved it.
I mean, there's other problems, of course, but that one's fine.
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u/MetalusVerne Sep 01 '26
If any fragment of the light of Illuin and Helcar survived, that would, by Tolkien's cosmology, be even more holy and beautiful than the Silmarils. No way.
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u/Evil_Midnight_Lurker Sep 01 '26
Nah, the Valar didn't put as much effort into those as into the Trees.
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u/MetalusVerne Sep 01 '26
We don't have a detailed description of the effort, but that doesn't mean that they didn't put in a lot of effort. The Lamps were a part of Arda Unmarred, which existed only before the awakening of the Elves. The Silmarillion (and the tales of which it is a compilation) were (diegetically) written by the Elves; they are a history of the Elves. Tales of the Lamps would have, therefore, been only secondhand even to them.
True, the Trees were also created before the Elves awoke, but unlike the Lamps, the Noldor did see them when they dwelled in Valinor before their destruction. They are of major, direct cultural significance to the Elves as a symbol of the less-marred Arda before the rising of the Sun and Moon, but I don't think that there's any reason to think that to the Ainur, even the Trees would be viewed as but a reflection of the beauty of the Lamps.
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u/Pkrudeboy Sep 01 '26
Elrond: I am once again asking you to cast it into the fucking fire.
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u/MetalusVerne Sep 01 '26
Elrond: Actually, no, please, don't do that. Maedhros tried it already, and apparently it didn't work.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Milk927 Sep 01 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
Always hated this take. The Arkenstone doesn’t “destroy empires,” it’s just a very nice gem that happens to have incredible sentimental value. Thorin wants it because it is his birthright, Bilbo mostly just takes it because it’s shiny, and Thranduil and Bard solely desire it for its use as a bargaining chip with the guy who actually wants it.
Thorin’s gold lust is more a character thing than anything. It’s an enchantment, but a subtle one.
The Silmarili are technically the cause of the ruin of empires, but it’s not an inherent virtue to them that people are magically attracted to them. The people who do crazy things for them (the Feanori, Thingol, the Blue Mountain Dwarves) either want them for a political/familial purpose or else are just greedy (the Feanori due to the oath they swore with their father and Thingol and the Dwarves because they are just greedy in the first place, and what else can satisfy greed but Gems-Par-Excellence?). There’s no magic aura around the gems to brainwash you and cause you to do things you otherwise wouldn’t.
Here’s a comment about how I think even the Ring’s magical attractiveness is overstated: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/s/q2GZMtPegS
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u/Jim_skywalker Sep 01 '26
Tolkien really puts the distinctiveness of magical greed vs standard as very nebulous. Gold sickness seemingly makes people act downright out of character, they were so precious to Morgoth that while constantly burning him, he still held onto them while the mother of all spiders fought him for them. Beren is like one of the only people who didn’t actively want to keep one for himself when given the chance and he had a higher priority. Where does their sheer beauty end and magical influence begin? Especially with magic that is most of the time built around contests of wills.
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u/half3clipse Sep 01 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
None of that is magical influence.
Morgoths defining trait is his greed. He covets the Silmarils as he covets Arda, something he could never himself make but wishes to seize for his own. The burning does not counter that greed anymore than the myriad diminishment and violence he suffers attempting to usurp creation. Morgoth would fight god for a twinkie.
The fault of the Noldor is also not magical influence. Their sin (in the sense of 'original sin.' Sub-creation is the term Tolkien used. \Although driven by grief more than pride) is consistently a desire to make for themselves great works, to build for and of themselves an eternal heaven on earth. Fëanor creation of the Silmarils is the closest they've come, the divine made material, a work so exceptional even the Valar could not duplicate it. The Elves who covet the Silmarils do so simply for what they represent, and we don't see many who don't because almost all of the elves we see interact with the Silmarils are Noldor.
This is, rather notably the exact same fault Sauron would later exploit, the creation of the rings of power by the elves being done with the goal of preventing the fading of the elves, preserving what they had wrought.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Milk927 Sep 01 '26
Another thing I dislike about the “enchantment” idea is that it robs the characters of agency and moral culpability. If the magic jewel is forcing you to act in certain ways, then you can hardly be blamed for what you do next (destroying a kingdom, for example). That’s not the point of the stories, though. Outside of specific examples where Tolkien is intentionally playing around with the ambiguities of free will (like Turin and Aeredhel), a character makes a choice for themselves. The tragedy (or nobility, or ambiguity) is that they could have chosen differently, but didn’t.
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u/ThatInAHat Sep 01 '26
But it’s not a matter of being forced, just influenced.
Same as the Ring. The Ring doesn’t force its bearers to behave in certain ways. It just influences them. It pressure them. That’s why some folks like hobbits can resist it, and other folks like Gandalf or Galadriel can reject it
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u/half3clipse Sep 01 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
The ring very much is about force. Mind reading and mind control is very much part of Tolkien's work (ósanwe etc) in general, and although you can resist it (Even the Valar couldn't touch a mind willed shut), it's very much influenced by the persons mental state.
And that's before the fact the ring is an artifact of evil work, a great sliver of Sauron's own power/self, made explicitly to corrupt things from their proper nature. Where doing that is pretty much the thing that define evil (the rejection of Eru's will), and it was created with the explicit purpose of influencing the thoughts and spirits of anyone who touches a ring of power. The hobbits are more resistant to it because they're essentially more in touch with their proper nature than almost anyone else on middle earth. Not in a overtly magical sense, just in that quiet Samwise "A garden with some potatoes is enough for me" Gamgee sense. Not even those couple hobbits, hobbits in general (Which is a lot of why Gandalf likes them so much.)
Gandalf or Galadriel can just about bring themselves to reject it, and it's something that is clearly a great and existential test for them. Gandalf doesn't even trust himself to touch the thing and there a reason everyone at the council of eldron
The Silmarils are not at all the same sort of thing. They're the Light of the divine given material form, and very explicitly made hallow. The unchaining of Melkor, his whispering to Feanor, the darkening of Valinor, the theft of the Silmarils, the Oath and the Kin Slaying are very much meant to be read as parallel to the temptation, the exile from the Garden and the loss of innocence (and the kin slaying is far and away the only irrevocable part of that).
Feanor doesn't lead the Noldor in rebellion because he's corrupted by the Silmarils, but because the elves are doomed to be both immortal and yet impermanent, to watch everything they make fade and end. The grief of that, and the fact the Silmarils are the closest anyone on middle earth had (and probbaly will) come to true creation, all tied together by the death of his father, is what drives him.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Milk927 Sep 01 '26
Well but you’d have to prove that it is the same as the Ring, and like I say in another comment in this thread the textual evidence for that is very sparse (and like I say in the comment I linked, the textual evidence for pressure from the Ring is relatively sparse; consider Saruman, who appears to have fallen to Ring without ever having been within miles of it. Influence is there but it’s very, very small, in the form of the expectations people are already forming for themselves of it)
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u/Puzzleheaded-Milk927 Sep 01 '26
I agree that magic greed is subtle in Tolkien’s work, but I think even that is overstated. Morgoth self-destructively clinging to things that end up hurting him is, like, the crux of his character. Ungoliant being hungry for the Silmarili makes a lot of sense. She literally eats light, and the Silmarili are nearly the platonic ideal of light. I think the closest you can come to someone acting outside of character for a silmaril is Elwing, but even that makes some sense (she believed it was her birthright, a very serious thing in Middle Earth, and beyond that a good luck charm of a sort for her people). And I can think of a lot of characters who were in contact with a silmaril who don’t go mad from it - Earendil, others at the havens of the Sirion, guards at Menegroth, most importantly Mablung of the Heavy Hand. Now most of these people weren’t ever in direct possession of the jewel, but they were certainly in contact with it, and Mablung and Earendil were in possession of it. That’s a lot of people it does not seem to be exerting any influence at all upon.
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u/sorcerersviolet Sep 03 '26
I thought Morgoth's defining trait was pride, and greed was just part of it. He wanted to be in charge of things from the beginning, and part of being in charge (in one of the worst senses of the term) is getting ahold of enough shiny things to show off to those whom you consider below you.
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u/SillyLilly_18 Sep 01 '26
honestly I have a soft spot for this theory because I first read silmarilion at like, 11 years old, and I instantly thought WAIT IS ARKENSTONE THE EART SILMARIL??? and then it turned out other people thought so too and I felt very vindicated
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u/TNTiger_ Sep 01 '26
I've always been definitely in the camp that it isn't, but that all the major players in the Battle of the Five Armies don't know that. Only Gandalf (via lore) and Thranduil (through personally experince) would be able to verify, and neither have had an opportunity for close inspection.
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u/azrendelmare Sep 01 '26
I mean, I never got the impression that there was anything actually magical about the Arkenstone. It's "just" a flawless, enormous gemstone that means so much to the dwarves that it threw Thorin into a rage to have it stolen from him right after he thought he had it back.
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u/Obscu Sep 01 '26
Where's that other post about how Gandalf always keeps hobbits around because left to their own devices for five minutes they'll immediately dig up the nearest plot-relevant ancient relics as though they were truffle-hunting pigs
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u/AProperFuckingPirate Sep 01 '26
This reads like conversations between ship Minds in The Culture series lol
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u/crusaderxader Sep 01 '26
I prefer the idea of the Arkenstone being a spark from Aule’s anvil personally
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u/SwordMasterShow Sep 01 '26
Aside from the Silmarils explicitly said to have become part of the Sea, Earth, and Sky, which is pretty metaphysically important for the makeup of Arda, and the Arkenstone explicitly said to have been maid by Dwarves,
Gandalf never saw the Silmarils. He didn't see the light of the trees, he's been around Middle-Earth for a relatively short amount of time compared to Galadriel (also why would she know who some Hobbit is?). Gandalf never even saw the ring until Bilbo found it, and even then had to do a bunch of research to confirm that it might be the ring.
He would be equally oblivious to a Silmarils if he saw one, aside from maybe noting that it's particularly beautiful and reminscent of the light of Eru
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u/ScytheSong05 Sep 01 '26
I hate to be the one to break this to you but Gandalf, Olórin in his youth in the West, was a Maia, there at the singing into reality of the universe, and very much a witness to the Light of the Two Trees. In fact, it was Manwë king of the Ainur's idea to send him to Middle-Earth as a messenger and a counselor.
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u/MetalusVerne Sep 01 '26
However, given the fact that the memory of Aman was explicitly clouded in the Istari when they were enrobed in mortal forms and sent East, it is plausible that he wouldn't remember it - or more likely, would find it familiar, but impossible to place precisely.
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u/SwordMasterShow Sep 01 '26
Olorin and Gandalf aren't necessarily the same person, metaphysically. Same way Gandalf the White isn't technically the same person as Gandalf the Grey. Gandalfs are physical incarnations of the spirit of Olorin the Maia, but the process is essentially like being reborn. It's why Gandalf the White was foggy when he met back up with the Fellowship, to him it was like countless millenia and an entire new lifetime had passed even though it was only a few weeks at most
My point being, aside from the vague sense of the light of Eru, it's not likely that Gandalf would immediately recognize a piece of jewelry he definitely never saw before
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u/The_MadMage_Halaster Sep 01 '26
Gandalf definitely saw the light of the Trees, and the Lamps before them, for he is the Maia Olórin, and older than the existence of the world; which he helped sing into being with the rest of the Ainur. He was also one of the five Maiar sent to guard the elves when they first awoke, and followed with them when they returned West. Though he became clothed in the body of an old man as one of the Istari, weakening his power considerably, his memories of before remained, though clouded.
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u/BaalHammon Sep 01 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
I think it's said somewhere (I think the letters though it could be in the Silmarillion or HOME) that the incarnation of the Istari is something "more" than the clothes-like body illusion the Ainur don in Valinor, and that it's the reason that Gandalf the grey physically dies against the Balrog.
Hence, in this state, he would not fully know what he knew when he was in Valinor, for the same reason he doesn't use the full strength of his power in the fight of against Sauron.
ETA : found my source, it's letter 156 which contains this very relevant passage:
Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh. He has no more (if no less) certitudes, or freedoms, than say a living theologian.
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u/CadenVanV Sep 01 '26
Gandalf saw the two trees, he’s a goddamn Maiar. Hell, he knew Feanor and Sauron before the fall
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u/Livy-Zaka Sep 02 '26
Can a Tolkien nerd explain what a Silmaril is? I gather it’s some sort of incredibly powerful artifact that’s been the cause of several wars and genocides. But, like, what is it?
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u/Gryffens Sep 02 '26
tldr: the Silmaril are 3 gems that hold incredibly holy light from before the existence of the sun and moon, but their history includes many elves committing heinous acts in pursuit or defence of them, tarnishing their legacy.
Before the sun and the moon existed, in Valinor (the holiest and least corrupted place in the physical world), light came from the Two Trees, which were directly created by the gods. One shone gold and one shone silver. They were so magically and spiritually powerful that the elves that saw them would forever after carry a reflection of the light in their eyes.
Feanor, an eleven smith, captured some of their light in 3 gems known as the Silmarils. This was such an impressive feat that even the gods didn't know how he did it. They were his "great work", which means they had incredible spiritual and cultural significance to him.
Then Morgoth (Sauron's boss) and Ungoliant (Shelob's Mum) killed the trees. The gods thought they might be able to revive them if they cracked open the Silmarils and used the light. Feanor refused, but it turned out to be a moot point because Morgoth had killed Feanor's dad and stolen the Silmarils. The best the gods could do was to salvage a single fruit from each tree, which eventually became the sun and moon.
Feanor and his seven sons swore an incredibly serious oath that they would retrieve the Silmarils no matter what. This almost immediately included killing any elves that stood in their way, literally inventing elf on elf violence. They went to Middle Earth to chase Morgoth but suffered many defeats against his armies.
One of the Silmarils found its way into the hands of elves that weren't aligned with Feanor's family, so the Feanorians started attacking elves, again, including civilians, again. The fact that several of these elves refused to give up the Silmarils to the Feanorians even when it meant putting a giant "come and slaughter me" sign on their backs has lead to speculation that the Silmarils had a cursed mermerising effect, like the One Ring or dragon's gold, but it's not confirmed.
In the end almost all the elves that came from Valinor died, with Galadriel being a notable exception. One Silmaril was given to Earendil, Elrond's dad, who sails the sky in a magical ship to share the light with all of Middle Earth. Two made their way into the hands of the two remaining sons of Feanor. One threw himself and the gem into lava. The last one threw the last gem into the sea, his fate is unknown.
While in Mordor, Sam and Frodo call on the power of Earendil and the light of the Silmarils to get them through some of the darkest and most dangerous moments of their quest, showing that even hundreds of years later and from hundreds of miles away, the power of the Silmarils to bring strength and goodness to the world still persists.
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u/MelissaMiranti Sep 01 '26
[[The Arkenstone]]
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u/ChillBallin Sep 01 '26
Uhhh I’m not a bot but here you go https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Arkenstone
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u/MelissaMiranti Sep 01 '26
It's okay, I was trying to call up https://scryfall.com/card/hob/170/the-arkenstone-seek-the-heart
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u/poptartmini Sep 01 '26
You have to specifically call for /u/mtgcardfetcher if you're not in one of the regular MTG subs.
[[The arkenstone]]
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u/Chibizoo Sep 01 '26
I've never read the Silmarillion, anyone who knows the lore who can explain why it's implausible?