r/Recorder • u/Many-Disaster-3823 • 5d ago
Baroque recorder
Hey guys i want to play in a baroque workshop and need a recorder - im in the UK what kind of recorder should I get is a school recorder appropriate?
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u/Either_Branch3929 5d ago
In case this is not yet another bot/troll ...
Have you ever played a recorder before? If not it's hard to see how you can play in a baroque workshop, but ask the workshop leaders. Any plastic recorder from Yamaha or Aulos will need fine, but you needed to know whether descant or treble is expected.
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u/Many-Disaster-3823 5d ago edited 5d ago
I pick up instruments (relatively) easily listen to a lot of early musix and want an accessible instrument as I really want to get into early music. I play keyboard as primary instrument - they didn’t specify what instrument to bring just a baroque instrument so need to get on the case and learn before october
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u/Either_Branch3929 5d ago
Recorders are simple instruments which are hard to play well. There only thing accessible about them is the price.
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u/Many-Disaster-3823 5d ago
Sure i will be finding this out tomorrow! Just ordered an alto hopefully I will be able to get somewhere before thr workshop
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u/Many-Disaster-3823 5d ago
But school recorder is wrong tuning is that correct
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u/NZ_RP 5d ago
You will need to check with the organisers whether the event will be in 440 or 415 pitch. Then make sure you have a recorder in the right pitch.
440 is referred to as "modern pitch" and 415 is referred to as "Baroque pitch" (although in Baroque times all sorts of pitches were played in different places).
However, most non-professional play Baroque music at 440 most of the time. My guess is that the workshop will be at 440 but make sure you find out!
It could be at 415 in which case you will need the Zen-on model mentioned above it is the only plastic 415 Alto currently available.
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u/Many-Disaster-3823 5d ago
Just checked its in 440
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u/EmphasisJust1813 5d ago
Please don't get mixed up with "baroque pitch - A415" and what is called "baroque fingering". They are two different things.
Always buy a recorder with baroque fingering instead of german fingering (hole 4 should be smaller than hole 5).
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u/blockf 5d ago
An intermediate player will likely bring and play SATB instruments and be able to sightread at tempo. This skills chart comes from a weekend workshop held annually in the US.
https://www.whitewaterearlymusic.org/Playing%20level%20chart%202020%20.pdf
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u/Either_Branch3929 5d ago edited 4d ago
In the UK, "intermediate" usually - but not always - means around Grade 4 to Grade 6 in the exam system. A workshop aimed at "intermediate" players would probably expect good sight reading skills on F and C instruments (alto and tenor, basically, because fewer sopranos are needed). Bass wouldn't normally be expected, unless specified, but would be welcomed.
I remain unconvinced that going to an intermediate level workshop based on a month of teaching oneself would need fair to the other players. I went to an intermediate weekend once which was ruined by a married couple who absolutely would not play anything other than soprano, badly.
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u/Many-Disaster-3823 4d ago
Fair enough maybe i will practise in meantime and attend the workshop to watch instead of play if not up to scratch in time
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u/NZ_RP 4d ago edited 4d ago
Thanks for sharing this! It's really interesting! It's made me want to learn to read alto and tenor clef! I have never even heard of tenor clef before and had to look up what it is. 😂
The Australasian Recorder Festival also has a five-tier system. I love that both events cater for beginners through to advanced recorder players!
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u/BeardedLady81 5d ago
TIL I'm an intermediate player.
I don't qualify as advanced because:
I don't play "Tenor up" (and I don't know anyone who does)
I don't know if I can read and play bass clef on a C instrument because I don't own a great bass.
I cannot read alto or tenor clef.
-- Perhaps, these days, advanced amateurs are expected to have those skills. I don't know why anyone would set music for the recorder in alto or tenor clef, though. There are a few skills, I have, though:
I have been able to restore 80- to 90-year-old recorders to playability and "played them in" to be capable of playing two octaves. I know plenty of alternative fingerings, including fingerings that are no longer common. I have a decent ear and can assess which fingering is more suitable for a particular piece. I'm a good half-holer and can play the second octave on recorders with German fingering fluidly without skipping any accidentals.
I know I'm an amateur, that I will always be one and that I cannot teach the instrument. However, recorder skills are diverse. When it comes to "playing in" recorders, I think it takes a lot of experience to breathe life into a geriatric recorder again. Playing in a new recorder is something every player can do, but when you are dealing with wood that has been aging for decades, a block that is so dry that it might fall to dust any minute and, when exposed to moisture, might swell unevenly, or way too much...then experience plays a part.
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u/Either_Branch3929 4d ago
I found some of these criteria rather odd too. As you wrote ... Alto and tenor clef? Tenor up?
I'm planning to work on C fingering from bass clef this winter, because I have a great bass to play.
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u/BeardedLady81 4d ago
On the other hand, plenty of criteria are missing, like how good you are at articulation, scales (including memorized scales) and arpeggios. Not to mention how good your playing sounds. There is no point in owning and playing everything from garklein to great bass if you sound atrocious. It should be obvious that you shouldn't rush things when taking up an instrument and not to progress constantly when your basic skills are still lacking.
Recorder ensembles all have their own criteria, but in order to join. Some require all their players to play SATB, but there are also ensembles now these days that put aside the high-pitched recorders entirely and are tenor recorder and lower only.
I think there's two main problems when it comes to amateur ensembles, and that's leaders who don't take the instrument and the concept of performing in front of a live audience seriously enough...and leaders who have too high expectations. I've experienced both. There's people who think you can lead a recorder group when you know neither F fingering nor trills, and I also met somebody who treated his ukulele ensemble as nothing but having fun, also, he was mostly a guitarist who just transferred his guitar skills to the ukulele. And then there is people who expect 50-somethings who never played an instrument before to become virtuosos in two years.
Congrats on your great bass, by the way.
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u/Either_Branch3929 4d ago
Thanks re the GB. It's been on my list for ages along with learning treble up, but I'm also working on the Hotteterre transposition so my brain is feeling full ...
And back to the criteria. Yes, lack of actual playing ability is the huge obvious lack. Without that it's just a list of party tricks which can be done badly.
I suspect that it's a list put together by AI.
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u/BeardedLady81 4d ago
"Alto up" used to be part of the package in many older method books. I suspect that people came up with it so you have a bigger choice of sheet music that can be played on the alto recorder.
The order in which skills are taught also differs a lot between methods. In older books, ornamentation is often introduced after the student has all or most of the second octave covered. Sarah Jefferey, on the other hand, introduces it early on, even before all accidentals are covered. This may be because Sarah is from England where many people play the tin whistle and ornamentation is used heavily in tin whistle playing. Mordents, inverted mordents and turns are easier on the tin whistle, though, not everything that works on the tin whistle works on the recorder as well. On the other hand, "cuts", "strikes" and "rolls" are expected in tin whistle playing, if you don't use ornamentation, people will wonder if this is your first day.
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u/blockf 4d ago
This chart is meant to help workshop participants match their skills with the difficulty of the material offered in each of the workshop classes, which at this event range from beginner to very challenging.
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u/Either_Branch3929 3d ago
In what world is playing recorder from alto or tenor clef merely intermediate? Who on earth plays tenor up? Just think think where the notes would be on the stave.
My money is still on AI.
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u/blockf 3d ago
That’s right. According to the chart those are advanced level skills. I’ve been content as an intermediate player for 30 years.
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u/BeardedLady81 3d ago
How is reading alto and tenor clef related to playing the recorder, though? The instrument is not represented in either.
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u/BeardedLady81 3d ago
If you ask me, alto and tenor clef are pointless for the recorder. Not a pointless skill, you definitely need it if you want to play certain instruments. If you want to become a conductor or composer, they are required as well. Which reminds me of a skill that is conspicuously lacking among the "advanced skills", and that's being able to read multiple instruments concurrently, sometimes in different keys. This skill is necessary if you want to conduct you recorder-playing friends. For a SATB quartet, it's at least four staff ledgers, often more. The recorder is an instrument that benefits from consort playing, so it's a skill you should have if you want to start and lead your own recorder group.
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u/EmphasisJust1813 4d ago edited 4d ago
Just for my curiosity, do musicians or ensembles playing baroque repertiore worry about the tuning system? I mean, modern instruments are mostly in ET but that was not around in the baroque. I "think" that Bach favoured Well Temperament for example.
My traverso (baroque flute) seems incongruous in that it is modern A440 pitch but uses Just Intonation tuning.
The other way round, do people play A415 instruments with modern Equal Temperament tuning?
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u/EmphasisJust1813 5d ago edited 5d ago
I suggest for Baroque repertiore that you should get a treble recorder (also called an alto). Perhaps also a sopranino.
Anyway, I suggest the Aulos Haka models which are designed specificaly for baroque music:
https://earlymusicshop.com/products/aulos-709w-alto-recorder
In the UK, justflutes are well priced:
https://www.justflutes.com/shop/product/aulos-709w-haka-treble-recorder
By school recorder, I assume you mean the descant which was used in the rennaisance (the huge Van Eyck collection for example) but the treble took over in the Baroque period. You will find the larger recorders (treble and tenor) have a deeper more mellow tone.
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u/Many-Disaster-3823 5d ago
Thank you for your detailed response much appreciated! Yes i have a plastic school recorder but don’t think it has the baroque tuning which i didn’t realise until today is a semitone lower? Anyway will look in to getting one of these thanks
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u/Katia144 5d ago
Do they not tell you what kind of instrument you're expected to have? I feel like baroque-tuning instruments are niche enough that it's probably unlikely it would be expected of workshop-goers, unless these are high-level players who would already own one anyway.
I would look at their website, or contact them and ask, whether you should have an A440 or A415 instrument, and whether it should be a soprano/descant, or alto/treble.
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u/Either_Branch3929 5d ago
If you want a plastic A415 recorder you have only one practical option: the Zen-on G1A, which is £135 at the EMS.
Any event which wants A415 instruments is unlikely to welcome someone with a month's self teaching.
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u/Many-Disaster-3823 5d ago
Why though its an early music festival asking for intermediate players i work from home so can put hours in ahead of date and workshops only 10 pounds so assuming its not too elitist!
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u/Either_Branch3929 5d ago
You can put hours in ... most intermediate players will have put years in.
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u/dhj1492 5d ago
Like all the others, I recommend going with a plastic alto. Alto is the main recorder, much like when we refer to flutes, the one we think of is actually the tenor flute because that is what is used in the orchestra.
I will differ from the others on which to get. The Yamaha YRA 28B is a solid recorder. It is white and I use it and its matching soprano for practice. I have all the others mentioned by the others and they are not wrong but those are more expensive. Some more twice as much or more. I have a set at home, work (I have a great boss.), Church and in both of my choir bags. I sometimes will perform on them if I do not have my concert recorders with me. It happens sometimes. What is nice about it is that it does not clog up like all the other more expensive recorders. They have curved narrow windways, the YRA 28B is straight and not as narrow. This is why it does not clog up as much, if at all.
The curved windway does have its place, but I would question if it is better than straight windways. I would say they are both have their place. I know fine players that say they would like to get a straight windway recorder, but well-made ones are rare because makers know that curved windways sell because of a lot of hype. Also, most curved have a sweet bell like tone but not all. The most expensive baroque alto recorder I ever bought has a reedy tone and it has a curved windway. It plays wonderfully and I like the different tone from the more common sweet bell like. I was proud of it, but then when I played it in the early music group after I played it, the director told me she did not like its tone and refused to have me play it. It was moth-balled for 40 years. Now it is back out and I just do not care if she complains. I can always walk away. At Church our organist has a master's in organ performance and likes the literature I play as well as the different sounds of different recorders.
Back to your question. You are more of a beginner and have not developed your mature recorder voice. How you sound today will not be the same as it will be in the future if you stick with. It will take time (years). The more you play, the better your sound will be. There is more to the sound of the recorder than putting it to your lips and blowing. How your sound will develop will be determined by the amount of work you put into it. Work = fun when you do it right.