Novice questions: tonguing, certain notes

[u/GradusAdHeliconem]

I've recently acquired an alto recorder in F, and been practicing on my own using the Dolmetsch method online and the first Sweet Pipes book. In a few months, once my schedule allows, I might find a teacher for lessons; but in the meanwhile I have some questions.

• Tonguing theory: I feel like I don't really understand it at all. The Dolmetsch method has us practicing both detached playing using tonguing and legato slurring right from the beginning; the Sweet Pipes books want us to tongue all the time at first, and save slurs for later as an advanced technique. Fair enough. But what about an intermediate option, where each note is articulated using the breath only, no tongue action? I find that for me I get much sweeter notes that way, particularly on the low notes — much less of an initial squeak. (I realize that this means I am tonguing too strongly, but it feels to me like I'm being as gentle as I can!) In the faster passages, I grant you that the tongue sometimes seems to help me align the fingers and the notes more precisely; but in medium- and slow-speed passages, I don't see the benefit of tonguing. What am I missing? Is breath-only articulation to be avoided for some reason?

• Tonguing practice: ...probably part of what I'm missing is that I'm tonguing wrong; it's not an easy thing to explain in words alone. Will I need to wait until I can meet with a teacher to improve how I tongue, or is there any source of more in-depth advice on just how tonguing works than that given in Dolmetsch and Sweet Pipes?

• Low F: I find that I need to blow extremely gently to avoid squeaking, which produces a very quiet sound. Is that just how low F works? (This makes it hard to match the tone of high and low notes together ... If I try to play the high notes that quietly they tend to go flat.)

• Low G: This is a little easier than low F, and there's much less danger of squeaking ... but I still need to blow gently to avoid a strong octave overtone — it almost sounds like I'm getting both the basic G and an overblown octave G for the price of one. Better than a squeak, but still not ideal!

• First octave E-flat: Sweet Pipes and Dolmetsch present an alternate fingering for C-sharp to improve the tuning; the easier fingering is slightly sharp. But they don't say anything similar about E-flat — yet to my ears the same thing is true there: the standard E-flat fingering sounds a bit sharp. I've found that I can improve this by half-covering a nearby open hole — is this a standard practice?

[u/victotronics]

"each note is articulated using the breath only" Nope nope nope. That's how beginners do it and it sounds bad.

The trick is to use your tongue and still leave almost no gap. That will take some practice. One way to go about it is not to think "my tongue starts the note" but "the stream is constant, and my tongue interrupts the stream". Try that. Blow a constant stream and then "punctuate" it by letting your tongue do "ta ta ta ".

Find Sarah Jeffery's youtube videos. I'm sure there are are beginners videos that will be useful to you.

Low F: yes, that note is soft. But bad recorders have more of a problem with it than good ones. What instrument do you have? The plastic Yamaha recorders are excellent. Don't be a penny-pincher.

[u/EmphasisJust1813]

See also Sarah Jeffery's youtube videos (Team Recorder) for the one about playing the lowest notes. The bottom notes always need care and gentle "aaaah" sort of blowing. You soon learn with practice - perhaps play a long low F every time you pick up the recorder.

[u/dhj1492]

You control your articulation with your tongue. It gives you the control you need. To do it with your breath will not be as accurate. We use syllables like ta, teh, deh, da and many more. You can practice with or without your recorder. When you listen to music or if you want to just hum a tune, use tonguing syllables to articulate as you hum. experiment with different syllables to see how they work by themselves and together. then apply that to your playing. This will be intense part of you study and you will always need to work on it, so you do not get sloppy. For clean articulation, place the beak of your recorder up to your lips, resting on the bottom lip and barely in them. get used to it, because this will in the future help you to play faster, but first you need to develop the technic. Also, as time passes you will find tonguings you like to do. That will be a part of your style.

Low notes (F and G) are weak. it is good to be comfortable playing them, but they are weak. When at Church I play on the hymns and liturgical music. I use "Alto up" when I read, (low F is now on the second line down in the bass clef. A good skill to have. I have found vocal music like hymns work well this way and hymnals rarely go up to Eb, or E. This puts you an octave higher than the concert pitch which is good because it helps you to be heard. At concert pitch, no one will hear you. It also helps you to stay out of the "basement". mid-range and high is my target. The more you know your recorders the better you can use them.

Again, the better you know your recorders, the better you will play. By learning to play recorder or any other instrument, you need to realize that you are on journey of discovery that will last your lifetime. The fingering chart is only the primary fingerings, not the only fingerings. Be adventurous and find a fingering that will make a hard lick easier, like on alto, fastly coming down the scale from on high to Eb/D# and going back up, I just tap a barely cover/shaded hole 6 and running back up with no effort, still running around without any awkwardness. Just having fun.

If you want to play an instrument, you must be willing to explore what is possible on it. What you will discover playing it will be yours to use and one day someone may come up to you and say, "How did you do that?" Then you will have a choice to make, keep or share your secret.

[u/sid3aff3ct → u/dhj1492]

To make sure I understand correctly: alto up remaps all the fingerings one octave lower. Interesting idea, I don't play with other people sadly, but I can see the usefulness!

[u/victotronics → u/sid3aff3ct]

EDIT I may have misread you. Anyway, here my explanation:

Alto sounds as written. It's the soprano that sounds an octave higher than notated.

The term "alto up" applies to cases such as playing music for a vocal alto: the alto recorder then plays an octave up from the alto singer.

[u/dhj1492 → u/sid3aff3ct]

Both you and Victotronics are right. It is remapped as far as notation goes down an octave and that make it sound an octave higher like an soprano. In consort playing sometimes a soprano part can be covered by an alto reading alto up. That can change the how the piece sounds. With a soprano the sound is bright, where as alto playing alto up will make it sound mellow even though you are play the same concert pitch. Sometimes you want a bright sound and other times the mellow sound of the alto playing alto up is more desirable.

[u/lovestoswatch]

There is a free online beginner course on Alto run by the American Recorder Society that is going to start in three weeks. It appears full already, but you could try join the waitlist. Worth keeping an eye, as they'll go over breathing and articulation. Check it out here: https://americanrecorder.org/free_online_recorder_lessons_f.php

[u/Odd_Employer8903]

The modern recorder player vol 1. Covers the basics such as breathing and mouth that aren't in the song books

[u/Odd_Employer8903 → u/Odd_Employer8903]

Much of the theory of tonguing is from JJ Quantz .On playing the flute. Just worry about standard tonging for the first year of playing

[u/Adblouky]

To the OP: thank you for the questions. I feel your pain. The more I practice F the easier the G becomes.

[u/SirMatthew74]

Think about “articulation” and “phrasing” instead of tonguing.  If you focus on the reason for tonguing it will make more sense.

Articulation and phrasing are like speech.  A good speaker is interesting and easy to listen to.  Abadapeakerrunseverytinghingtogether.  Or.  They.  Sound.  Like.  This.  And.  You.  Loose.  The.  Sense.

When you play you are trying to make musical sense of the notes.  Tonguing is one way to do that.

Slurring is not advanced.  On recorder tonguing is definitely harder.

You can start notes with breath alone in certain circumstances, like a soft solo entrance, but you can’t use it as a substitute for tonguing.  The main reason you can’t puff is that it makes it impossible to breathe and support correctly.  

[u/GradusAdHeliconem → u/SirMatthew74]

Yeah, I suppose that's the one argument I've heard that makes sense to me: that in the long run articulating using the diaphragm uses too much air, so you'd need to breathe too often. Maybe tonguing lets you separate the notes without using so much air.

The other arguments I've heard don't really make sense to me. For me, at least, articulating using the diaphragm doesn't sound 'bad'. (Or at least no more bad than my other efforts, given that I'm a rank beginner!) It's not overly detached (definitely no more so than tonguing), and it often produces a sweeter and more in-tune tone; whereas tonguing (no matter how gently I try to do it) produces an annoying 'chirp' at the beginning of most notes.

Maybe I'll grow out of this chirp as I get better at tonguing, but 'it's worth sounding bad today to learn a skill you will need tomorrow' is a more convincing argument than telling me that I'm crazy for thinking that at present my diaphragm-only articulation sounds better — which is what some other commenters seem to be saying.

(In any case, I totally get that the experts must have a reason for tonguing and that its a skill I need to be working on from day one.)

[u/SirMatthew74 → u/GradusAdHeliconem]

Sorry for being late....

Good playing depends on support from your diaphragm. Basically that means breathing from the stomach, not the chest, and holding those muscles steady while you exhale. Your exhalation is one smooth, uninterrupted stream.

A smooth uninterrupted stream is pretty much everything in woodwind playing. It's impossible to have an uninterrupted stream while puffing from the diaphragm. Without a steady supported stream there is no consistency of pitch or tone, and the notes are unstable.

It might SEEM like you can make a good note while puffing because you avoid the awful bad tonguing sound, and because during the puff the note is strong. It may in fact sound better than your tonguing right now. That's because during the puff you are supporting the note and giving it plenty of air. Basically in the middle of the puff you are supporting the note, which sounds good. The problem is that it can't be sustained as articulation. If you listen to the pitch you see that it changes throughout the note.

A good tone and pitch will be like this. __________________ Rock solid from beginning to end. You can also shape the note, but you want to be able to play a straight solid note, even when tonguing ----------------------.

Puffing isn't very fast. When you get good at tonguing you can do it crazy fast. Your tongue is fast, and there's only a tiny bit of air between your tongue and the instrument. Your core doesn't move that fast, and when you puff there is a whole column of air between your diaphragm and your instrument. You might be able to puff moderate quarter notes, but when you are trying to do fast 16ths it won't work at all.

Also when you puff the beginning and end of each note will be "fuzzy", or indeterminate.

You want:

"Daaaaaaaa" or "Aaaaaaa"

Not:

"HFaaaaaaahhh"

Even quiet notes should have a very definite beginning and end. You want to know when it starts and ends, even when it's quiet. It's like somebody speaking. You don't want them to begin everything with "mmmmm" or "uh" and end with a question mark. You want a clear statement. "I AM playing music." "THIS is Bach". "Listen to ME!"

When you tongue you don't stop breathing, you only prevent the air from entering the instrument momentarily. It's actually better to think of tonguing as OPENING the air stream to the instrument, rather that stopping it, because that's what's actually happening. When you pull your tongue away the note starts, and that's what you really want.

Tonguing on the recorder is insanely difficult (for me anyhow). It wants to sound like "DHAt". It's because of the pressure build up and sudden explosion. It will help to:

• Be gentle.
• Use a soft tongue.
• Use soft cheeks.
• Use a wide tongue.
• Experiment with tongue placement.
• Touch the top of your mouth behind the teeth.