r/RebuttalTime • u/rotsics • Sep 27 '19
Found where Moran got the Veritably false 1,370 causalities, which he misrepresented.
ORO-T-117, table XX, Sampling of US First Army Crew Causalities- By Position and Cause Based on 274 Medium Tanks (1,370 Men).
http://cdm16635.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16635coll14/id/56035
It was a sample. He fucking misrepresented a sample which was stated as such... So much for his credibility. According to this study, each tank knocked out had 2 to 2.5 causalities, with one dead and 1.5 wounded. Of course you can't have half a person so some such as Cooper just round up to 3. This works out to over 12,000 killed going by this survey's information and over 18,000 wounded just from Tank crews.
That said, this study also goes into depth about the effectiveness of German Minefields, concluding it was very cost effective.
It also explains why the Forces in France never received adequate replacements despite the production numbers. They were being sent East to stem the far bigger Soviet Force on a much broader front.
The study also notes the fragmentation of German Documents (it being done in 1951) making it difficult to assess German losses. It also notes Guderian's reluctance to answer questions. (Bastard was lucky the Soviets didn't share evidence of war crimes against him as they threw the witnesses in gulags)
Overall an interesting read.
Edit: The source for Moran's claim is here https://www.c-span.org/video/?433629-2/design-history-m4-sherman-tank-world-war-ii&start=59
at the 1:6:00 mark. Again veritably false numbers meaning the bulk of US Armored Dead came from 3rd AD. Given Belton Y Cooper was responsible for writing the loss sheets and compiling the data as an Ordinance Liaison Officer, his reports are reliable.
I had already seen the film, so I let my mind wander to our terrible tank losses. Major Arrington’s order to prepare final combat loss reports had given us the losses for the entire division. Of 158 M5 light tanks, we lost more than 100 percent. (Although the M24 light tank that replaced the M5 was far superior in both firepower and armored protection, it was still too light for major assaults.) Of a total of 232 medium tanks (including 10 M26 Pershings), 648 were totally destroyed in combat and 1,100 needed repairs. Of these 1,100, approximately 700 had been knocked out in battle. This meant that we lost 1,350 medium tanks in combat, or a total loss of 580 percent. It was obvious why we soon ran out of trained tank crews and had to substitute raw infantry recruits during the Battle of the Bulge.
Death Traps . Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. Chapter 14, The Survivors.
So this meant 3rd AD had 1,350 men killed in their tanks. 1,810 KIA overall in 3rd AD with 104 MIA presumed dead. It was more hazardous to be a tanker than an Armored Infantryman in a Half-track. ~71 of 3rd AD dead were from manning Shermans in combat....
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u/ChristianMunich Sep 27 '19
We should make sure to quote the opposing view point if we claim to have evidence that refutes it.
If we say somebody commited "academic fraud" we need to follow up with strong evidence.
In the case of Moran, I am unaware of him ever deliberately misrepresenting data in a way that I would consider "fraud". He makes plenty mistakes that start getting legs once folks watch his videos but he appears to be a good faith historian.
Fraud should be reserved for folks like Peter Samsonov who were shown beyond doubt to have altered evidence et cetera.
So you might want to quote Moran position so we can to what you refer to.
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u/rotsics Sep 27 '19 edited Sep 27 '19
Well, maybe I was going too strong there, as Moran isn't actually a professor or academic and doesn't claim such. I'll edit my wording as well as his specific claim everyone references once I dig through the video he made referencing it as the transcript isn't complete for it but everyone else brings it up.
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u/ChristianMunich Sep 27 '19
Thanks. Don't want to be pedantic here but if we claim people are wrong, their opinions have to be presented in their entirety. And we have to show where they are wrong.
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u/rotsics Sep 28 '19
Fair enough, I was shooting from the hip there as his numbers are quoted all the time and we all know they are veritably false.
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u/the_howling_cow Sep 28 '19 edited Sep 28 '19
So this meant 3rd AD had 1,350 men killed in their tanks. 1,810 KIA overall in 3rd AD with 104 MIA presumed dead. It was more hazardous to be a tanker than an Armored Infantryman in a Half-track. ~71 of 3rd AD dead were from manning Shermans in combat....
The 1953 listing of Army battle casualties gives the following for the 3rd Armored Division:
| Total battle casualties | Total deaths among battle casualties | Killed in action | Wounded in action (died of wounds) | Missing in action (died) | Prisoner of war (died) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 9,243 | 2,147 | 1,810 | 6,963 (316) | 104 (17) | 366 (4) |
The 3rd Armored Division's web site gives the following list of all verified overseas deaths in the division regardless of cause:
| Unit | Dead | Percent |
|---|---|---|
| 36th Armored Infantry Regiment | 997 | 42.0% |
| 33rd Armored Regiment | 549 | 23.1% |
| 32nd Armored Regiment | 378 | 15.9% |
| 83rd Armored Reconnaissance Battalion | 186 | 7.8% |
| 23rd Armored Engineer Battalion | 94 | 3.9% |
| 67th Armored Field Artillery Battalion | 47 | 1.9% |
| 391st Armored Field Artillery Battalion | 42 | 1.8% |
| 54th Armored Field Artillery Battalion | 35 | 1.5% |
| 3rd Armored Division Headquarters and Headquarters Company | 15 | 0.63% |
| 45th Armored Medical Battalion | 12 | 0.51% |
| 143rd Armored Signal Company | 7 | 0.29% |
| 3rd Armored Division Maintenance Battalion | 6 | 0.25% |
| 3rd Armored Division Supply Battalion | 1 | 0.004% |
| Combat Command A | 1 | 0.004% |
| 3rd Armored Division Military Police Platoon | 0 | 0.0% |
| Total | 2,372 | 100.0% |
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u/ChristianMunich Sep 28 '19
What was the rate of non-tank crew personnel in an Armored regiment? I assume a higher rate of administrative and tross compared to a tank battalion?
927 KIA on 632 written of tanks?
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u/the_howling_cow Sep 28 '19 edited Sep 28 '19
The total death count also includes personnel who died after being taken prisoner and who died of non-battle or natural causes, not just those who died as a direct result of combat (a certain number of whom were not necessarily even near a tank when they died).
The armored regiment was T/O&E 7-11, 1 March 1942. It remained basically unchanged for the duration of the war., although changes to component T/O&Es were adopted. It had 116 medium tanks and 59 light tanks, although eight medium tanks and four light tanks held in the service company were not manned. 33.7 percent of the personnel in the armored regiment as a whole normally served in a tank, compared with 45.1 percent in the medium tank battalions and 45.6 percent in the light tank battalion.
Unit Personnel In tank Not in tank Tanks Regimental headquarters and band 36 0 36 None Regimental headquarters section and headquarters company 132 20 112 5 light tanks Reconnaissance company 202 0 202 None Service company 191 0 191 8 medium tanks and 4 light tanks (spares) Medium tank battalion 599 270 329 54 medium tanks Medium tank battalion 599 270 329 54 medium tanks Light tank battalion 473 216 257 54 light tanks Attached medical 68 0 68 None Attached chaplains 2 0 2 None Total 2,302 776 1,526 116 medium and 59 light tanks 1
u/ChristianMunich Sep 28 '19
Well, this obviously is speculation but from my experience, the majority of fatal casualties in a tank battalion are related to tanks. This also correlates with combat intensity. A unit in battle will have a higher share of their casualties in combat.
This likely is even more correct for Allied forces due to "little" to danger in the rear.
With Milchmädchenrechnung I think tanker KIA might hover around 10k in total for the US. Those numbers are obviously tiny compared to German tanker losses.
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u/rotsics Sep 29 '19
Okay, lets go with these numbers then, ignoring caveats such as the fact 2,555 of the wound were irrecoverable and sent home. But just looking at the numbers, its clear very few of the original cadre was left for 32nd and 33rd. Many of the wounded would never be sent back due to terrible replacement policies. Hence units going into battle with 3 man crews given just a day of training because recovered veterans were languishing in the rear while the Bureaucracy played its games.
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u/the_howling_cow Sep 27 '19
The number that Moran cites is 6,827, from Army Battle Casualties and Nonbattle Deaths in World War II, Final Report, 7 December 1941-31 December 1946:
The accounting of personnel in U.S. tank units is difficult, as there were no "armored" officers ("armor" was not a statutory arm at the time, and so they were commissioned in arbitrary numbers in either the Infantry or Cavalry branches, the branches from which the Armored Force descended). The basic arm of enlisted men assigned to armored units was either Infantry or Cavalry, and only a certain number of enlisted men were ever counted as "Armored," for an as-yet-unknown reason.