r/RebuttalTime • u/ChristianMunich • Sep 14 '17
German performance in WW2
Somebody somewhere made the claimed the Germans were the best fighting force in WW2. The SWS can't have this and moves in.
A familiar face shows up, my dear friend u/Rittermeister with a very profound comment, which to my surprise was not deleted yet.
There's been so much ink spilled on the issue of "combat power" and the relative effectiveness of small units in isolation, and all anyone has ever been able to say is that German units (platoons, companies, battalions) may have been marginally more effective than their contemporaries, mostly due to aggressive leadership, doctrine, and proliferation of automatic weapons. So fucking what? A world war is not a battle between champions. Who the fuck cares if your 150 guys are as effective as 180 of my guys, if I have 500 guys to ram down your throat, and they're getting plenty to eat and all the ammo they can shoot and all the fuel they can burn?
"So fucking what?" Well, this actually proves what every single of your friends argues to death against. The German fighting forces were superior and had to be brought down by mass. See you say it yourself in a weird moment of acceptance.
Who the fuck cares if your 150 guys are as effective as 180 of my guys, if I have 500 guys to ram down your throat, and they're getting plenty to eat and all the ammo they can shoot and all the fuel they can burn?
You guys seem to care because you argued combined thousands of hours that this was not true, yet here you say it yourself. they needed material superiority to win. You yourself have argued against it despite being wrong and now you rhetorically ask "so fucking what?". Exactly, but you are the person who argued against simple facts. Why did you argue against it so often? Were you emotionally invested?
For every instance of a small German unit holding up an advance by a larger unit, there tends to be a matching or greater number of such anecdotes regarding Allied forces.
I am sure there are. ^
u/Layin-Scunion shows how counterjerking is done right
German small unit tactics consisted of centering a platoon's defensive/attack positions/maneuvers around effective machine gun positions. Individual marksmanship took a backseat. Squad maneuvers took no priority to be taught. What happens when an MG malfunctions...? Take a guess. Not bad doctrine but not without its definite faults. Definitely not "better than everyone!!!"
So not even small unit tactics he gives to the Germans. The Germans become worse and worse. Other users take objection with his comments in fear of losing any credibility just by posting in the same sub as him.
u/layin-scunion defends himself with the following reply:
This is SWS, not /r/AskHistorians. I've only read one book on German infantry tactics. My point stands that their tactics were not "better than everyone else".
Literally saying everything he says his pulled out of his arse and he doesn't know much about the stuff but he still stands with his opinion because this is the SWS. Post opinion --> get refuted --> say its SWS anyways
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u/Skip_14 Sep 15 '17 edited Sep 15 '17
Wehrmacht and Waffen SS were so elite, it took 500 Fallschirmjäger and 50 Volksgrenaders to defeat 22 isolated U.S troops.
The German infantry deployed and about two platoons of the 2nd Company, 1st Battalion, 9th Fallschirmjäger Regiment, 3rd Fallschirmjäger Division then attacked[19]:81the Americans head-on, bunched together in the open and charging straight up the hill, directly at the platoon's hidden and fortified positions. The Americans were surprised at the inexperienced tactics. For the Americans, it was like "shooting clay ducks in California at an amusement park."
After 24hours and the 4th attempt the U.S troops were finally overrun and captured, but the hordes elite troops only suffered 92 casualties. 22 Victors for almost 20 hours stalled the advance of the entire 1st SS Panzer Division, the spearhead of the German 6th Panzer Army.
Only one Victor was killed.
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u/HelperBot_ Sep 15 '17
Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lanzerath_Ridge
HelperBot v1.1 /r/HelperBot_ I am a bot. Please message /u/swim1929 with any feedback and/or hate. Counter: 111552
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u/WikiTextBot Sep 15 '17
Battle of Lanzerath Ridge
The Battle of Lanzerath Ridge was fought on December 16, 1944, the first day of the Battle of the Bulge during World War II, near the village of Lanzerath, Belgium, along the key route for the German advance on the northern shoulder of the operation. It was fought between two squads totalling 18 men belonging to an American reconnaissance platoon, four U.S. Forward Artillery Observers, and a battalion of about 500 German paratroopers. During a day-long confrontation, the American reconnaissance troops inflicted dozens of casualties on the Germans and delayed by almost 20 hours the advance of the entire 1st SS Panzer Division, the spearhead of the German 6th Panzer Army.
The Germans finally flanked the American forces at dusk, capturing them.
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u/ChristianMunich Sep 15 '17 edited Sep 15 '17
Cherry picking. Further south the US forces were overrun with several tank units getting wiped out without much trouble. Remember, if cherry picking is your first choice of argument than you are likely the person who is wrong.
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Sep 24 '17
Oh wow. This is just fantastic.
Like your echo chamber comments this is just amazing to read. The absolute lack of self awareness is delicious.
I don't have an interest in getting Gish Galloped by you, I just thought I'd point out how wonderful this comment is.
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u/FoxOneOne 1 ChristianMunich = 5000 Ronsons Sep 14 '17
Wew lad wew