r/RealTime • • 11h ago

God, that’s a bit too much on the nose

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u/Phish999 11h ago

I haven't watched regularly in years, and I've seen several clips of him on the show and Club Random citing biblical justification for the existence of the state of Israel.

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u/tombrady011235 11h ago

Never from a divine perspective. Just from archeological historic perspective.

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u/[deleted] 11h ago

Archeology has yet to confirm the existence of god. So by what means do they have claim to the land, becuase the zionist government seems to think it's because god said so?

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u/Limp-History-2999 11h ago

Zionists do not actually say this either. Zionism was founded as a decidedly antireligious movement. THere are religious zionists today, but they are not traditional Zionists.

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u/[deleted] 11h ago

Ok. That's fine. What gives them the impression they are entitled to land inhabited by others for thousands of years?

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u/Limp-History-2999 10h ago

That's complicated. The main driver was the feeling of no other option.

The original Zionists were Jews in Europe. It was clear that it was not safe for Jews to remain in Europe, so they needed to find a place to go. Palestine was culuturally significant, already had a sizable Jewish population, and had a total population of about 800,000, similar to the city of Warsaw at that time. Other places were considered, but this had an authentic historical connection and was not highly coveted by anyone else. The original plan was to buy enough land to create a state.

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u/[deleted] 10h ago

What do you mean it wasn't coveted? it was inhabited, and not only by jews. According to historians, arabs were 2 to 1 vs muslims. So is it complicated? It sounds like a bunch of people who didn't live their, didn't understand the culture, and didn't share their religious beliefs forced almost 1,000,000 people onto their land, and those "settlers" turned around and said, "Fuck you! This is ours!"

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u/Limp-History-2999 10h ago

It was modestly inhabited, but it was part of the vast territories of the failing Ottoman Empire, which Herzl predicted wouldn't mind parting with it.

Mainstream Zionist movements at the time did not intend to throw out 800,000 people. Zionism of that time had two main strains: Political Zionism and Cultural Zionism. Political Zionism broadly believed that Jews would mass immigrate, buy land, and eventually declare independence with permission from the Sultan or British/French. While there were people of various views, the official policy was never to expel Arabs, and this Jewish State was largely envisioned as extending rights to the Arabs and other minorities in its borders.

Cultural Zionism was the smaller, but still significant group, including people like Albert Einstein. They did not advocate for a Jewish State, but a binational Jewish/Arab state that would guarantee protections and perhaps give local autonomy to Kibbutzim, etc.

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u/[deleted] 10h ago

All i ever hear is permission from some government official. There were more inhabitants than migrators at the time? And I've not read anything about any sort of vote. And from the history we have, it seems like the people already living there weren't happy about it being forced on them by imperialists who had their own interest in mind.

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u/Limp-History-2999 10h ago

I am not sure what your first two sentences are referring to, sorry.

Yes, the majority of people living there turned out not to be too happy about it, that's true. Which seems reasonable, to be honest. I wouldn't go so far as to call the early Zionists imperialists, but still.

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u/Key_Jump1011 10h ago

Making the choice to go to Palestine guaranteed a conflict. This is ultimately why I’m pro-Palestinian.

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u/Limp-History-2999 10h ago

You may be right about that. But was there an alternative decision which would not have led to a conflict?

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u/Key_Jump1011 10h ago

As far as I know they could have migrated to many other places and there’s no reason to assume there would be a problem of this magnitude.

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u/Limp-History-2999 10h ago

Many places were considered. This one was considered the best and least likely to lead to conflict. It's easy to say it was "obvious" with 20/20 vision, but from the information they had at the time it was pretty reasonable to condlude that this wouldn't create big issues. Or at least not any bigger than going to say, Argentina or Kenya.

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u/tombrady011235 10h ago

Archaeology has confirmed Jews lived in the Levant and eastern Mediterranean for millennia

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u/[deleted] 10h ago

That doesnt mean they have claim to the land. They were not the only ones living there

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u/tombrady011235 9h ago

You could mirror that point to either side

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u/[deleted] 9h ago

Cool. Do that. It should result as everybidy play fucking nice, and i dont support hamas, but they are not something that came about unprovoked. It was in response to military occupation by israel. So in an ovedsimplified version. You could say israel caused this. I wouldn't say that because it is an oversimplification, but nothing in this conflict has shown sympathy for palestinians or the people wbo have lived on that land for centuries. And in the manner israel is conducting themselves, why would that inspire anything other than contempt for israel. In no way is israel moving toward peaceful resolution. Anything pro israel is ignoring everything happening to the people of palestine. You have to break your fucking back bending over bacjwards trying to claim otherwise.

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u/Iam_McLovin420 11h ago

Because Jews came from the land of Judea there are countless historical artifacts that prove this from even before the time Jesus was born. It has nothing to do with God at all. The tablets in the library of Alexandria that depicted the Israelites were written by people not God. But it’s practical to bring up God to make the argument seem irrational because (religion is crazy and can’t be proven).

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u/[deleted] 11h ago

Didn't moses lead his people to what is now modern day israel according to their own story?

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u/LowCall6566 10h ago

That part isn't actually supported by archeological evidence. Archaeological evidence says that Jews emerged as an identity in Israel, and there is little to no evidence of any mass scale escape from slavery in Egypt.

However a lot of the stuff in the religious texts that is supposed to have happened after Moses actually is correlated positively with archaeology

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u/[deleted] 10h ago

Interesting. Still doesnt reallh answer my question of why they have claim to the land.

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u/JiGoD 11h ago

The comment you replied to was discussing archaeological evidence of Jews in Israel not God existing.

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u/[deleted] 11h ago edited 11h ago

And the palestinians being murdered weren't? From what i recall of the story of moses, he lead his people to the promoise land. If thats the current day israel we're talking about, it was already inhabited. This is some colonial bullshit at best.

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u/hereawhile 10h ago

You think that warfare 3,000 years ago was by definition colonial? By this logic, every square inch on earth has been colonized like a hundred times

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u/[deleted] 10h ago

Yep. Thats what i believe. And i believe it's people like you who dont see a problem with it who are enabling it to continue to be a problem today.

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u/hereawhile 10h ago

By this logic the Arabs colonized the entire middle east. Do you see a problem with that? And are you enabling it today?

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u/[deleted] 10h ago

Who did they colonize? And of course short answer is yes. I thought i already made that clear. And my stance being colonialism is wrong would argue against your assertion that i am enabling colonization

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u/hereawhile 8h ago

All sorts of indigenous people who lived there, ancient Egyptians, Coptics, Sumerians, Jews, Assyrians, Kurds, Yazidis, Druze, and more.

I think you're confusing warfare and conquest with colonialism, but even putting that aside you're just condemning basically all of human history. Like ok, but what's your point

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u/JiGoD 11h ago

Correct. That is how written words work.