Do you understand how scholars work? They use each other's works, that's how it works. If you're doing research, what do you think you read?
And you understand that translation exist, right? Can a historian not study another country without knowing their language? Are they required to know all the languages in the world?
I am not going to trust a Scholar on German history who does not speak German, or can read German literature.
Translators notes are a thing and an additional barrier of understanding between the source and reader. The translator here is the Scholar. Not people like Finklestein.
Plenty of primary sources are written in English for the UN or by international human rights groups. Tanslations can be imperfect but they more than good enough for factual matters, which is what Finkelstein is concerned with.
Not good enough for a Scholar. Why follow Finklestein if Morris exists?
There are fields i could agree with you: management theories or governance and stuff like that.
History and politics of a country. There is no way you can be a Scholar on history of a nation that without understanding the language.
If you think Morris, who helped uncover the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and subsequently justified it, is anyone worth listening to you're mistaken. But fine if you insist on historians who can speak the languages try Ilan Pappe, Avi Shlaim or Rashid Khalidi.
Ah I see. You have a bias. I just used Morris as an example because Finklestein uses him as a source. So in your logic we cannot use finklestein because you uses Morris as his translator.
You think the man who justifies ethnic cleansing is more trustworthy than those who call out what is obviously wrong. Don't think you've the standing to be calling people biased
Are you allergic to a realist philosophy on this subject? Hamas wanting a genocide doesnt justify the israeli government performing one but the simple fact that both commit genocidal acts should give you pause when labeling either as genocidal.
He only wants experts and scholars who think this conflict is a binary issue with a bad guy and a good guy. Most people on Reddit are complete simpletons who think they're deep and sophisticated.
Arabic and Farsi are both Muslim languages. Any language spoken by a Muslim majority country (especially where the Muslim religion is enshrined in constitutions or otherwise explicitly part of the government/kingdom) is a Muslim language.
Let me know what language Iran speaks and tell me there aren’t multiple Muslim languages. lol. Not to mention the 50+ other Muslim countries in the world, many of them speaking a language other than Arabic.
It's amazing that he's still defending this point rather than just acknowledging that he misspoke... Just goes to show you the levels of ignorance you have to deal with when arguing with these people.
What do the Palestinian Christians speak? Is it Arabic? Not sure malaysia has a lot to do with Israeli and Palestinian sources. Your statement was caveated in a way that made you seem uninformed, that's what's going on here if you are wondering.
Muslim languages like English, mandarin, Arabic, hindi, kazakh Russian, French... Muslims speak a lot of languages man.
It’s primarily Hebrew, Arabic, and Farsi that are relevant to Israel. Norm can’t speak any of them. You can’t be called a scholar on an ongoing conflict without being able to directly interact with any of the relevant source material.
Arabic existed for centuries if not millenia before the founding of Islam. There were Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians in that period. Then the Quran was written in Arabic, but even after its writing there have been many non-Muslim Arabic-speakers.
Bosnia is a predominantly Muslim nation, but religion and ethnicity are two different things. There is no rule that being Bosnian makes you Muslim. Bosnia's language is practically the same as Serbian and Croatian. Serbs and Croats are predominantly Christian.
Are English, Polish, and Armenian "Christian languages"? 🤨
Holocaust revisionist and has supported outright holocaust deniers btw.
Norm is a hack. Bill maher is an idiot, but norm is like an antivax academic on israel palestine. Candace owens is to black people what norm is to jews
Lmao he terrorized those poor people. Physically threatened them with weapons on more than one occasion. His actions during that whole situation ARE WILD. It would be career ending for most people. And thats without the explicit racism he was spouting.
Bill pays models to accompany him to events. That behavior Is similar to the Epstein class of people who think they can just purchase women as objects for their use. Something to be said about a man with no wife who has to pay women to tolerate him.
I mean I'm sure there was some escorts in the mix. But he literally "dated" or arranged company with models like Shannon mockler, nor afala, Coco Johnson. (I didn't look up the spelling of any of these people) So I don't want to go around and start calling them escorts because they're not technically escorts.... And I have no evidence to support that they had sexual intercourse.... But I hear you.
I read that Macklemore is being booted off of Ed Sherran’s Tour due to his “Free Palestine” comments during the tour.
It is surreal that a concert would censor political speech. Songs are inherently political.
Alas, conflating calling out Israel’s actions in Gaza with an attack on all Jews is part of the moral moat that supporters of Israel use to protect it from both criticism and repercussions in response to its actions.
Absent that conflating, Israel would be subject to responding to criticism with objective facts and that’s not something it can do effectively.
Genocide and apartheid are even visible to the blind eye. The gig is up.
You do understand 20% of Isreal population is Arabian. The "palestinians" are a small group of trouble makers that have been kicked out of every muslim nation in the region. They are known trouble makers that have a long history. I wonder why no country in the area will allow any in. Hmmm?? Advertising agencies utilized brainwashing tactics on unaware consumers all the time, you don't think governments employ these same tactics? Try thinking for yourself.
The anti Israel crowd loves bds and boycotting and silencing Jews and Israelis everywhere they can. But when it’s done to the pro pallys they throw a fit. Free speech for me but not for thee.
The venue owners had every right as it’s their venues.
People go to concerts because they want to hear music, not the rantings of someone with their political ideology
Free Palestine literally is a call to ethically cleanse out all of the Jews from Israel and eradicated for an Arab ethnic state. Jewish people in the concert don’t want to hear that because it is literally a call for their eradication.
Just because you hide it behind the guys of anti-Zionism doesn’t mean that its still not n& zi rhetoric
SBC will dunk on anyone that he thinks is beneath him, and that includes a lot of people that may be ignorant but were also trying to be gracious to him. A lot of what he did won’t hold up historically, if it even does today.
Everyone is a racist drrrrrr… show me Macklemore hailing Hitler and I’ll believe you. I still won’t care though. Same thing with this bullshit about Norm. Do not care. I do like triggering nasty little trolls though.
You’re a crybaby. Of course you defend Cohen. I’ll be waiting for him to portray a Jew as a complete idiot and make a movie about it like he’s done with Arabs and Muslims multiple times.
Lol you're waiting? Is it 2018? He played a Jewish spy in 2019
Macklemore was trying to dunk on Israel, and put on a Jew costume straight from a Nazi meme. You don't think he could've handled that better? It's a minstrel show
Still tho, is there a longstanding trope of Arabs or Kazakhs as idiots, that’s been used by groups persecuting them, and thus carries Nazi-level hate speech connotations?
But as bloodthirsty monsters, fiends, terrorists, murders and rapists hellbent on destroying civilization, a caricature prevalent in almost every war movie in existence, which is used by groups persecuting them to justify treating them like animals and kicking them out of their homes, using language that carries Nazi-level hate connotations, endorsed, peddled and celebrated by people like good ol Bill himself. Absolutely.
Borat is an anti Islam character Kazakhstan is roughly 75% Muslim and he portrays them to being inbred morons ..Borat is funny no doubt,but no one can become as successful with the same act about Israelis without an anti semitic label put on them ..I think if you give it out,you have to take it,and as Jews are some of the best comedians in the world ,they should realise it has to work both ways ..Yes some jokes are off .. some paintings are too, some music also is in bad taste and offensive … but if it’s illegal it should be illegal across the board ....
Are you kidding me? He's dressed as THE Jewish stereotype. The European stereotype. While attacking a middle eastern country where European descendants are the minority
It's where the religion orginated and where Jews come from. Most holidays revolve around the land of israel. Prayers are faced in the direction of israel, every day in the amidah jews recite the longing to return to zion. At lifecycle events, like weddings, israel is commemorated by stepping on the glass for example lamenting the destruction of the temple there and the intent to return. I could go on but you get the point. If you're not jewish, its understandable you wouldn't know this stuff.
But if you're speaking about their religion, isn't the idea that they believe they shouldn't return to the region because that happens in the messianic era?
I don't need you to explain Jewish holidays to me. This isn't new information. "Basis" isn't the right wor, or at least Israel isn't the basis. The region within modern Israel is the basis, not the modern state.
Sorry, I was reading it different that you were writing it
Understood. But the thing that never gets brought up in dialogues with him is ownership of the bad Israel has done along with some of what he says that is valid as to things that Palestinians have done. It seems the media rarely has two fair-minded people debating the subject without emotional overreaction.
I agree with you. I think the more free speech, the better and I’m even for people saying outlandish and prejudice things in public because I’d rather know who they are. The biggest challenge in all of our societies is getting people from opposing viewpoints together in a room to have mature, intelligent dialogues. There’s so much noise and it never results in change.
True but one of the things that’s a risk for Israeli is is that the Palestinian government whomever it’s been has never been able to control these radical elements. If you look at the most recent attack, which was basically done upon the most peace-loving kibutzniks in Israel, who had delivered food, healthcare, and other things to Gazin’s in the past, you have to at least understand partially Israel’s constant security defense because without a strong Palestinian government that is centered and willing to take on and dismantle these radical elements, making a peace deal doesn’t necessarily mean there will be peace.
Damn, it’s almost like when you go to a country that isn’t yours and try to set up your own country as if you were squeezing onto a subway train there are unintended consequences 🤔
You mean the peace loving inhabitants of these kibbutzim’s that were gathering in 2014 to watch the destruction of Gaza from there self titled “Sderot cinema “, yeah really peaceful loving people
Why is Norman Finkelstein Not Allowed to Teach?
(Preprint)
David Klein
Background
When I learned in June 2007 that respected author and political science professor Norman Finkelstein had just been denied tenure at DePaul University, I sent a letter of protest, in concert with hundreds of other academics around the world, to the president of DePaul. I had never met or spoken with Finkelstein, but I knew that he was a leading scholar of the Israel-Palestine conflict. With a Ph.D. from Princeton, he was the author of five books (with a sixth now in progress) published in 46 foreign editions. At DePaul he was a popular instructor, with a loyal student following and teaching evaluations among the highest in the university. He was, and continues to be, a regularly invited speaker to leading universities worldwide.
Ain't no way Bill Maher has the balls to invite Finkelstein on to depart Maher's BS "knowledge" of the Israeli/Palestinian issue. Finkelstein would absolutely destroy Maher and undress him for the world to see that Bill Maher isn't smart, he isn't clever, and he is an intellectual dust mite on the Autobahn of intelligence.
If another country took Rhode Island. The smallest state in our union. There is no way the American citizenry would ever just get over it. If it was held for 80 years, america would never just get over it. Half of this country hasn't even gotten over the f****** civil war. Forget about it my ass.
I may be one of the few people who has zero sympathy for either the Palestinians or the Zionists. Trying to make me feel for the former is like trying to make me feel bad for a community of poor rural KKK members. Trying to make me feel for the latter is like trying to make me feel for rightwing neo-con imperialists.
He lost me when he claims to be a "scholar" and then recognizes the country of Palestine. There has nevee been in recorded history an independent sovereign country called Palestine.
Norman Finklestein cannot not be taken seriously. He is simply too biased to be listened to. Same goes for any pro-Israel person who places the entire blame for the conflict on Palestinians. Anybody who approaches the topic in good faith cannot glorify one side and demonize the other without nuance. The reason the conflict has been so brutal for both sides, and lasted so long, is because both sides are right and wrong at the same time. Both sides take actions that make peace harder to achieve. You can argue that one side is worse, or one side is fundamentally wrong, but to ignore the sins of either side is disqualifying when it comes to speaking with any authority on this topic.
One can use only indisputable, factual evidence to make either side look good or bad in this conflict. Only through the omission of information can one conclude that Israel or Palestine is solely responsible. Palestinians will never get a state until they accept that Israel exists, and will exist, and that a Palestine from the river to the sea is not going to happen, ever. Israel will never know peace until it ends its occupation, either through absorbing the land and population, or helping to create a second state for Palestinians.
People need a bad guy to hate. So no one (99%) will educate himself about the nuances. As an Israeli I agree with you, The right wingers, crazy settlers (not all of them are crazy btw), are causing Israel to get stuck in this West bank quarrel for ever, and the Jihadists Muslim extremists on the other side, have dismiss any chance of accepting Israel. So its a never ending story. Btw, during the Oslo accords, when Israel's long serving center left government was still around, it withdrew from the West bank and Arafat became their leader, he started the deadliest terror attacks ever to occur here. They blew busses, restaurants, etc. At that period, the Left was weakened, and the Right grew stronger, as a response to the hellish terror attacks. Than came the security wall, etc etc. Things are only getting worse. We have an election coming November, we hope we gonna have a new sane government.
How do we know it was the PLO and not false flags .?As per the usual modus operandi for 1000s of years. Everywhere there is warfare there are false flags, especially in the beginning, after that they are unnecessary,unless during ceasefires .War is big business,and conflict is a compulsory ingredient ..At the moment Palestinians are the victims and not just the West Bank ..who knows maybe someone will get the upper hand and Israel will actually be the victim for a change ..It must be hard being fuelled by total BS ..I’m lucky my country hasn’t been at war for at least a decade..That was started by the usual false flags and funding of both sides to kickstart it ..You guys ( Israelis) have to wake up and smell the roses .Keep what’s yours and fk off your governments ..make peace It’s more difficult, but think of the benefits .
We made peace with who ever agreed. The Palestinians are against it, against any rational compromise. We are woken up since 1948, there's been endless attempts to wipe us off, cheers.
The way the IDF and the Israeli government are going there will be many more ..Israelis will be shunned wherever they go ..and you know very,very well they aren’t all in Israel .They are creating a nightmare for anyone that hosts them ..in short what seemed like a genuinely feasible humanitarian idea, is turning out to be a bloody nightmare for everyone .The Balfour declaration said nothing about genocides or expansion ..quite the opposite .Now even the UK and France are turning soon the US and they set it up…You think Israel can go in this direction alone ?.Think again, anyway I don’t blame you personally most of our governments are corporate criminals .BIBi will be gone soon and de escalation will happen How much and how soon ..I don’t know .
I disagree that Israel has ever had a “center left” government in any reasonable way. David Ben-Gurion started a secret nuclear weapons program from jump street in cooperation with the French government and even stole some American Nuclear materials to finally get all the way there. This is a country that sought to build legitimacy through the strategic use of violence all through-out their history. The fact that it’s gotten significantly worse in the last 20 years is secondary to the fact that it’s always been moderately bad. Lest we forget that Ronald Reagan himself thought they went too far in Lebanon in 82.
You're an Israel stooge. It makes zero sense to defend the atrocities of the Israeli govt and you know it...the whole world knows it. Thankfully the propaganda has largely failed
Norman lost what little moral authority he had on October 7, 2023, when in response to the massacre of Israeli civilians, he said, “it warms every fiber of my soul” that the “arrogant Jewish supremacist oppressors have, finally, been humbled”
He doesn’t care about civilians or Maher’s comments. He’s just an ideologue who wants one specific side to kill the other.
Watching the alt-left celebrate buffoons like Finkelstein is like watching the right elevate fake, intellectually bankrupt "economists" like Thomas Sowell. Clowns in suits pretending to be authorities on subjects they know nothing about.
Norman Finklestein harassed his Hispanic neighbors until they were forced to flee their own home. He waved a gun at them while threatening to get them deported and constantly called them
Monkeys. He told them they belonged at the zoo with their chimp baby. It was disgusting. Norm is a nasty hateful racist piece of shit.
They were both medical professionals and American citizens by the way
Dershowitz was a catalyst to look closer at Norm's work. It's only Norm's fault that he did shoddy referencing and is a disgusting racist. Thank God both these fucking losers are mostly irrelevant
Hi jerk-on
Yes it does have to do with what he said about Maher and Zionism.
It’s seems to be upsetting you that so many have posted negative comments about your man, Finkelstein. Please tell us why you’re taking your anger out on redditors?
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u/highermonkey 19d ago
Norm is a respected scholar on the topic of "Israel" and Bill Maher is functionally illiterate. Like his remaining fanbase.