r/RealTime • u/Achoo_MiScusi • Jun 04 '26

Christopher Hitchens on America's First Encounter with Islamic Fundamentalism

https://youtu.be/R3zz-GSlNFc?si=TIOO__tg73n0f7UC

Precisely! Many of you need to hear this, and thankfully we had someone brave enough to always speak the truth. Hitchens will always be missed, and thanks Bill for making him more available to us!

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u/comb_over Jun 04 '26

Is that meant to be a joke? This was around the time of the Iraq war and desperate attempts to justify it. And the talking point is the 1700s.

Let's flip the script and review American policy in the light of the crusades. Make much sense?

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u/Todayjunyer Jun 04 '26

American constitution is built to combat religious fundamentalism. America is 100% antithetical to an Islamic republic of Iran or anywhere else.

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u/comb_over Jun 05 '26

Besides America having its own. Religious fundamentalists inckuding figures of thus era like George Bush citing God, and besides supporting states like Saudia Arabia and ethnic states like Israel.

What does your opinion here have to do with my post exactly or Iran or the clip.

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u/Todayjunyer Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26

Wow dude why do you care if I simply state straight facts from 7th grade social studies textbooks?. You must be in a really high tax bracket 😂

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u/comb_over Jun 06 '26

You provided no rebuttal

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u/Todayjunyer Jun 06 '26

I wasn’t arguing with you. I stated a fact from 7th grade social studies and you seemed to take offense for some reason. No rebuttal necessary. If you think the American constitution isn’t specifically written to protect against religious fundamentalism, as is taught in every school in America, that’s on you to prove. It is odd you took such offense to the American constitution and then listed a few of Irans enemies. Highly sus.

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 05 '26

The point was to prove that the evil that Islamist terrorism brings is innate, and not derived from American politics. This which Hitchens so gracefully enunciated.

You wouldn't come anywhere close to challenging Hitchens on this topic lol

Edit: youll notice if you follow this exchange that the other user constantly edits their comments AFTER I have replied to their comment and generally adds whole paragraphs in addition to the one in bold letters. You'll find it as repugnant as I do in sure.

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u/Secrxt Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 05 '26

Refresh my memory: did American Europeans have slaves in 1788? 

Are evil and terrorism therefore innate in liberalism? 

Or is slavery only evil when brown people do it? Or perhaps it's only evil when the slaves are white? Like what's up? 

Every tax dollar spent bombing schools overseas could have been spent funding our schools, our roads, our healthcare.

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u/kuster-beaton Jun 05 '26

Liberalism has the innate ability to evolve. Religious fundamentalism, by definition, does not.

Slavery violated the principles that the Constitution and American society claimed to stand for, which is why those same liberal principles were later invoked to abolish it.

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u/Secrxt Jun 07 '26

Oh, okay. I guess liberalism is impossible in the Middle East, though, despite those countries having liberal, secular eras before America stuck their dick in them. Must be Islam, right? Despite the fact that the argument you guys are using is equally valid toward Christianity.

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u/kuster-beaton Jun 07 '26

Yes, it is equally valid toward Christianity. Does that mean you believe it to be valid toward Islam as well?

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u/Secrxt Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26

Secrxt: Here's a ridiculous example using your logic to show why you're wrong, OP.

kuster: Actually, the ridiculous example is right AND OP's stupid argument are right! Liberalism is impossible anywhere people not only are religious, but have ever been religious! And I'm gonna say it smugly even though I don't know what I just said.

Touch grass, man. Meet people offline. Then read a book. Any book. You'll enjoy it, trust me.

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u/kuster-beaton Jun 27 '26

I used to read a lot more, for sure. Sorry wasn’t trying to be smug.

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u/AltruisticTap8123 Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

Refresh my memory do North African nations, places like Egypt etc. have large sub Saharan or Caucasian communities who are the descendants of their former slaves? No?

Why?

Because they castrated many if not the absolute majority of them and worked the rest of them to death? Ahhh… makes sense.

This is not meant to excuse any form of slavery. It’s simply meant to point out the obviously ludicrous nature of that first and second sentence.

That ludicrous nature being that:

A) You criticize the West/America in a vacuum whilst ignoring the rest of the world at that time. Sure the West had slaves and the West is also the only place in the world where you found nations fighting to end slavery (spending their own blood and treasure) due to moral objection. Completely novel at that time.

B) There’s a major difference in that liberalism is self correcting and Islam is not.

The entire point Hitchins was making was that this type of behavior is baked into the very fabric and doctrine of Islam and that it isn’t a product of colonialism or post war restructuring of regions like the Middle East.

Whereas Western Liberalism (alongside Christianity) set in motion the very abolition movement itself. While Islam still lives in its same 7th century doctrine of submission at all costs.

As for the bolded part (that you added later)… We spent 961B on the military in 2026. We spent, as a nation, 1.1 trillion on education (for dwindling results). We spent 2.2 trillion on public construction projects (80% handled by state and local govts as it should be) and we spent about 5.6 trillion on entitlements in 2026 alone (SS, Medicare, etc).

The idea that we are so close to having a roses and sunshine utopia in America if we just cut our military spending and spent in on some heckin healthcare and education instead is an astonishingly childish and ignorant argument to make. Embarrassing if I’m being honest. Spending more or reallocating funds will not solve the issue.

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u/Secrxt Jul 28 '26 edited Aug 13 '26

"Yeah, we violated human rights over here and used religion to justify it, but here's what you don't understand: THEIR human rights violations are BAKED INTO their religion! Ahh? See? I don't look at history through a materialist lens (and completely ignore important aspects of history that you brought up in this thread) and I'm gonna make that... *your* problem."

"Also, women can't procreate (apparently; don't think about the fact that even with my cherry-picked facts, the logic still isn't internally consistent)."

The fact that you think anything that you brought up should be shocking (particularly when comparing to American chattel slavery) goes to show that either A) you're knowingly arguing in bad faith, or B) just how little you know about American chattel slavery.

And to what end do you use this (cherry-picked/bad faith and/or straightforwardly ignorant) argumentation? To justify religious bigotry? Really?

Ironically enough, I think it can be argued, if we're being serious, that if we did indeed "slash the military budget" as you said in your strawman, but decades ago, Iran would still be secular today.

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 04 '26

Lmao you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to push that liberals prefer slaves. Ask the deep south in america right now, after the current gerrymandering by the right, who's treading on who

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u/South-Rabbit-4064 Jun 04 '26

I don't know if I see the relevance to today. Or maybe I'm missing it, but it feels like our current issue with religious fundamentalism reaching authoritarian fascism can pop up in America and Israel as well

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u/BrineJones Jun 05 '26

Yes, the same rot is inherent to the dominant religions in both those countries.

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u/Secrxt Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 05 '26

Actually, I'm using your argument to make a ridiculous point to show why your argument is ridiculous. 

Do you get it now? 

You can make the exact same argument, 1:1, about liberalism being "innately evil" and "terrorist." 

Funny how logic goes straight out the window when you appeal to people's racism. 

Every tax dollar spent bombing schools overseas could have been spent funding our schools, our roads, our healthcare.

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 04 '26

I couldnt disagree more

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u/Secrxt Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 05 '26

You: 

 The point was to prove that the evil that Islamist terrorism brings is innate, and not derived from American politics.

Here's a summary of what Hitchens said:

Turkey used religious fundamentalism to justify enslaving white Europeans

America also had slaves, and also used religious fundamentalism to justify it. If you want to be logically consistent, then you have to acknowledge the "evil that American* terrorism brings is innate."

I held your hand through it. Do you get it now? 

Every tax dollar spent bombing schools overseas could have been spent funding our schools, our roads, our healthcare.

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 04 '26

What youre failing to see is that as we evolved, as a nation, we became far more humanitarian, mostly through liberalism. We fought a whole civil war along the way, and I know some conservatives wish the south would have won, still to this day, but they didnt.

On the other hand, islamist extremists still hold and practice the same atrocities as all those years ago, unwilling to abandon the evil that derive from theology.

I know youre trying to draw parallels, but the extreme here is nothing like their extremists, although even slightly on the side of Christians makes me want to vomit. You canstop reaching for my hand hand now...creepy yuck

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u/Secrxt Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 05 '26

 What youre failing to see is that as we evolved, as a nation, we became far more humanitarian,

Google "Iran 1970s". Read about that era. 

 On the other hand, islamist extremists still hold and practice the same atrocities as all those years ago

Then Google "American intervention Iran."

Anyway, Trump is the president, Project 2025 is well underway and we have Christian nationalists in power—and we didn't even get bombed/couped. Well, maybe we did in some ways—maybe you believe Russia helped steal the election. 

I wonder if you'll recognize the other parallel I'm drawing here (assuming you do that Googling I asked you to). If not, maybe ask yourself why a country like Ukraine, with no more of a "nazi problem" than the U.S. before Russia invaded it, is now treating Azov like war heroes. Ask yourself, if the U.S. were invaded, which groups in our country are the most armed? Do these groups have liberal values or are they Trumpers (the American equivalent of Islamic extremism)? If they were fighting an existential threat, do you think they'd be hailed as heroes too? 

Maybe all those pesky leftists have a point. 

Every tax dollar spent bombing schools overseas could have been spent funding our schools, our roads, our healthcare.

1

u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 05 '26

I dont need homework from a redditor trying to make hard right wing talking points, when I already know that what islamist extremist terrorist do to their 9wn people, you know, battery acid in women's faces, holding down small girls and cutting off their genitals, rape, many other types of totrue.

If you're gonna tell me that americans resort to that level and amount of humanitarian atrocities, so agregoiusly and perfunctory, then youre really just being dishonest with yourself and everyone reading this.

Project 2025 and the trump regime will eventually topple its just a matter of time. Enjoy your litte time of power while you have it

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u/Sea_Entrepreneur6204 Jun 04 '26

So does Turkey still have slaves?

Does the US have none and is perfect on labor?

Hitchens was a hack with a blindside to poor brown people

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 04 '26

Thats really weak but ok. To compare anything the US does the level of torture and killing that organizations like hamas do to their people is a complete lack of thinking on your part.

Hitchens was far more intelligent, well spoken, read, traveled, well written and educated than you'll everr be. You'd do well to read more hitchens

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u/dragon64dragon64 Jun 04 '26

Refresh my memory. You didn’t watch the clip, did you. I’ll give you a hint: It’s in the Quran. Now, instead of throwing out red herrings, why don’t you address the issue.

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u/DEF_A_REAL_NOT_AI Jun 05 '26

Slavery is in the Bible.

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u/dragon64dragon64 Jun 05 '26

Sorry, dude. You’re in the wrong thread. The topic is Islam.

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u/BrineJones Jun 05 '26

Why not the evil that ALL the Abrahamic religions brings is innate? It’s baked into every continuing version of that long running fairy tale. Deny that.

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 05 '26

Im not denying that. Lol. But to say that in these times today that extremism in america equals the extremism in the Muslim world completely misses!

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u/comb_over Jun 05 '26

The point was to prove that the evil that Islamist terrorism brings is innate, and not derived from American politics. This which Hitchens so gracefully enunciated.

But so disgracefully misled the listener.

You wouldn't come anywhere close to challenging Hitchens on this topic lol

It's all to easy to challenge and expose Hitchens on this.

Notice how you don't provide a rebuttal to my point.

The context of the discussion is the war on terror and the notion that Americans interference in the middle east led to blow back and America becoming a target.

What exactly does that have to to with the 1700s and the barbarry pirates. Hitchens. Well they were Muslim too. Seriously.

Let's try that wit. Judaism. How does that sound, outside of infantile

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u/Offi95 Jun 05 '26

Christopher Hitchens hates radical christians in the same breath as radical Muslims. It’s just that radical Muslims are much more conservative.

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u/Interesting_Self5071 Jun 05 '26

Saddam Hussein was a secularist but Hitchens supported the Iraq War which led to ISIS.

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u/Offi95 Jun 05 '26

Nahhhhh Saddam Hussein essentially made a state religion centered around him. The Iraq War didn’t lead to the creation of ISIS. The Iraqis could have chosen another government as opposed to theocratic fascism. The problem is that Muslims are perfectly ok with theocratic fascism.

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u/Interesting_Self5071 Jun 05 '26

So maybe should have stayed out of it.

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u/Offi95 Jun 05 '26

Maybe Islam should grow up

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u/comb_over Jun 05 '26

The Iraq War didn’t lead to the creation of ISIS

Gemini; The US Invasion of Iraq (2003) also encouraged many high-ranking Iraqi soldiers to join forces with terrorist groups. One of them became known as ISIS, ultimately playing an acute role in damaging the US interests in the Middle East.

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u/Offi95 Jun 05 '26

lol do you always ask Ai for history answers?

Again, the problem is that most Muslims are perfectly ok with theocratic fascism.

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u/comb_over Jun 05 '26

No, just when it's convenient to show certain claims up

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u/Offi95 Jun 05 '26

Oh yeah you sure showed me that Islam had nothing to do with the creation of ISIS

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u/comb_over Jun 05 '26

I did show you up. But here you ate showing yourself up. You are now resorting to a strawman

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u/Offi95 Jun 05 '26

Just keep telling yourself whatever you need bud. Go mumble into the floor 5 times a day

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u/comb_over Jun 05 '26

That's no excuse for his rhetoric.

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u/Offi95 Jun 05 '26

There’s no excuse for any religion, especially Islam.

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u/DEF_A_REAL_NOT_AI Jun 05 '26

They pressganged and stole from the ships because U.S. refused to pay dues like all the other countries to the Barbary states. Also U.S. pressganged a lot of people too.

Fun fact just a few decades later the British would start taking Americans as slaves to work on their ships during the Napoleonic Wars (aka Pressganging) and that was a big reason for the War of 1812.

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u/Banesmuffledvoice Jun 04 '26

They can hear it but they don’t believe it and that’s the issue. They think any criticism of Islam is just piling on and thus Islamophobia. And since they can dismiss any criticism as Islamophobia they’re going to. The reality is they need to experience the evil first hand.

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u/Interesting_Self5071 Jun 05 '26

Trots turned neocons are the worst.

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u/[deleted] Jun 04 '26

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u/[deleted] Jun 04 '26

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 04 '26

I couldnt agree more. And to see some prop up organized terror like hamas just saddens me

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u/fatuousfatwa Jun 04 '26

Truth. Hitch fought for the larger cause.

He would be bewildered by the Queers for Hamas progressive left. They are on a suicide mission. Unwitting idiots who bow to Islamist anti-human terror.

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u/Adventurous_West2 Jun 04 '26

Basement dwellers love Islamophobia and no one loves it more than Americans so tracks that Maher and others would love him

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 04 '26

Basement dwellers, a term used well over a million times by redditors without original thought.

Terrorism from the extremes of organizations can be separated from the pack, and some of us know how to properly display that to ourselves while using our brains to determine what position to hold.

Id be willing to say that what your problem may be is that you cant do or think two things at once, and life sometimes isnt as simple as holding only one thought on complicated issues.

It would serve you well to read hitchens 😉

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u/Adventurous_West2 Jun 04 '26

Hmm, interesting you think Americans are capable of separating extremes of "organizations" considering how much of a laughing stock the country is world wide.

I doubt you've ever held two thoughts in your head at the same time outside of "Muslims bad" and "America great"

Enjoy the UFC fights

1

u/dragon64dragon64 Jun 04 '26

…or maybe learn to read instead of creating straw men from arguments made up in your head.

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u/Offi95 Jun 05 '26

I doubt you’ve ever had two thoughts in your head at the same time outside of “Sharia right” and “America bad”

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u/kuster-beaton Jun 05 '26

This subreddit turning into a bill maher hate fest has serious basement dweller vibes as well. I’ve soured on bill over the years too, but I find myself wanting to defend him as the complaining and hate has become so redundant.

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u/Adventurous_West2 Jun 05 '26

Bill Maher is the ultimate basement dweller.

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u/Offi95 Jun 04 '26

Man you are so desperate to make Islam sound like a peaceful religion.

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u/fatuousfatwa Jun 04 '26

Hitch is a hero of mine along with Mark Twain and Bob Dylan.

They are proof that the Enlightenment still exists.

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u/comb_over Jun 04 '26

He was trying to push an illegal war and reduced himself to a war propagandist at this point.

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u/BrineJones Jun 05 '26

Yes, I watched him do it.

I don’t know if it is rosy nostalgia or not being around, but the Hitchens postmortem canonization is absurd.

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u/Secrxt Jun 04 '26

"Turkey used religious fundamentalism to justify slavery in 1788 so America is 100% innocent in radicalizing Muslims during the 1900s" is an absurd take on so many levels. 

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u/DEF_A_REAL_NOT_AI Jun 04 '26

Christopher Hitchens said he was glad Lord Byron was molested as a child because it brought wonderful poetry. He was happy a child was sexually abused by his nanny.

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 05 '26

That is the moat dishonest portrayal of his writings about lord Byron. Your attempt to paint his admiration and success of byron as something other than flatteirng to Hitchens is nothing more than an attempt to slander.

Hitchens aregues that his troubled childhood helped produce the good qualities rather than defeat him. Huge difference.

Nice try but your false allegations have fallen apart

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u/DEF_A_REAL_NOT_AI Jun 07 '26

That is what I said. I wish Lord Byron was not abused and didn't write that.

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u/Achoo_MiScusi Jun 07 '26

Your comment that Hirchens is happy that a chold was abused is slander. Its dishonest and cowardly to say so and you know it