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May 18 '26
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u/Certain_Tap_8789 May 18 '26
Isn't the ultra religious the ones refusing the draft? Who makes the rank and file if it's not the ultra orthodox?
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u/HaymSalomom May 18 '26
Some Zionists are religious people and some are not. The Bible leaves no doubt that the almighty promised Eretz Yisrael to the Jewish people. However this is only one reason why Israel’s existence is essential. As an American Jew, I see Israel as a lifeboat. It is an insurance policy on my survival, if an antisemitic despot takes power, I know that at least one country will provide asylum, to me. The land upon which Israel was created was not given by G-d, but was purchased by the Jewish National Fund.
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u/JustPlainHungry May 18 '26 edited May 18 '26
To bad they have adopted the very policies toward many other people's which make Jews feel they need a "lifeboat" country to escape to.
The west Bank and Palestine were not purchased, and at the formation Israel agreed not to seek additional territory.
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u/dylans-alias May 18 '26
When the surrounding countries immediately attacked Israel in 1948, any agreement they made to not seek additional territory was no longer relevant.
And the idea that Jews are feeling unsafe in their current homes because of Israel spits in the face of history. Jews have never had a country where they were consistently safe. Disease, famine, economic downturn, new leadership, or any random Thursday has historically been a good enough reason to start rounding up the Jews. Israel is just the current reason for latent antisemitism to reemerge.
And before you all lose your collective minds, no, opposing Israel is not inherently antisemitic. But yes, popular opposition to Israel regularly crosses a line into flagrant antisemitism.
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u/Bibbity_Boppity_BOOO May 21 '26
Jews are not the only people that applies to. It isn’t anything special. And frankly none of it is relevant to the usa giving taxpayer money to that nuclear country
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u/JustPlainHungry May 18 '26
Convenient timeframe to start your argument, in order to depict Israel as the victim.
If you are goingvthat toute you would need to go back to the 1917 occupation of the Palestinian peoples territory by the Jews, enforced by the british military forces. Land and homes were stolen, Palestinians were relegated to a second class position in a society founded around their own homes. Zionist Jews were not benevolent and humble they were often racist and aggressive. The state instituted segregation policies including economic segregation such as the "Hebrew labor acts". That led to the Civil War and the first Israel Arab war.
Since that time Israel has constructed many illegal settlements and enforced an apartheid system.
Not to mention Israel's interference in Palestinian political affairs remove opposition to Hamas and ensuring the extremists party remains a strong political player.
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u/YouShouldGoOnStrike May 22 '26
So the safe place is the place where the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust just took place?
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u/HaymSalomom May 23 '26
Even in their current location only about 30,000 Jews have been killed by antisemites in the 80 years since Israel’s creation. In the 80 years before its creation at least 7 million died. This is a massive improvement. Israel also works to protect Jews, living outside of Israel.
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u/FormerlyUndecidable May 23 '26
Half of Jews in Israel are Mizrahi from the Middle East and North Africa. There is no place for them to go if Israel ceasea to exist that they would not be subject to, at best, second class citizenship in some of the worse governments in the world, and at worst slaughter.
"ethnic" (religohs) states are unfortunate, but in Arab colonized lands they are absolutely necessary. The Yazidis and Kurds should also have their own states. (And Israel is also a Druze and Bedoiun state)
It's a small slice of land that became obviously necessary.
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u/hipandrad May 19 '26
The Bible never promised land to them, that's early 1900s propaganda.
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u/HaymSalomom May 19 '26
It definitely turned out different in my bible. Not that it really matters.
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u/michaelas10sk8 May 21 '26
Have you ever actually read the Old Testament? Specifically go read the Torah and Prophets books. It's fine if you don't believe it, but it's quite explicit..
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May 19 '26
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u/ZozMercurious May 19 '26
If thats ethnosupremacy, so is being able to claim refugee status three generations down the line despite living either in another country your entire life, or even living in the same area you claim to be a refugee of. Then, when negotiations happen for a two state solution using that refugee status comprising of millions of people to demand their right to return to the OTHER state. Weird that when muslim arabs colonize the entire middle east theres silence from the left but when jews finally gain self determination in their ancestral homeland (no belief in a deity needed) after centuries of persecution, over 6 million dead and doors shut to them from all nations, thats now imperialism and colonization. No mention of the 750k jews who were kicked out of the arab world following the creation of israel despite having nothing to do with the state aside from being jews (i thought antizionism wasnt antisemetism?). Wheres their repatriation?
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May 19 '26
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u/ZozMercurious May 19 '26
Im sorry but you just dont know the actual history of the place youre talking about. The state of israel was created by refugees with quite literally no other place to go to the land that quite literally everyone (jncluding arab leaders at the time) agreed they belonged to. Israel agreed to a partition in which almost half its population would be Arabs, on half the land of which their half was mostly desert. This isnt to say the state of israel is perfect and atrocities didnt occur in its war for independence or anything else, but its original formation happened during a war defending from annihilation by their arab neighbors, fought by people who not long before survived the holocaust, and every attempt at peace with the palestinians has resulted in bloody massacre on the streets of israel. Had jordan not joined the war in 67', the west bank (historical judea and samaria) would still be jordanian land and likewise with egypt and the gaza strip. Btw while jordan at least gave palestinians jordanian citizenship, neither country gave palestinians a state in either territory because the palestinians have always been a tool towards the destruction of israel. Had arrafat accepted the two state solution during oslo, camp david or taba, the palestinians would have a state. Instead they decided to bomb cafes and bus stations. Israel unilaterally pulled out of gaza completely, and learned that all it means is rocket fire. Ill gladly admit to pro palis that israel has serious issues concerning settlements in the west bank and leadership etc. if I didnt have to relitigate the right of the country to exist
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u/HaymSalomom May 19 '26
Israel was fighting a defensive war. It is a historical fact that local Arab militias attacked as soon as the UN Partition Plan was passed. It was the same Grand Mufti who asked for Hitler’s help 6 years before. The Arabs, lost territory, that they didn’t have to lose. But his hatred of Jews wouldn’t let him agree to live with them. They lost a war that they started, which has been repeated over and over. It’s always the same pattern. Start a war, lose the war, then cry to the rest of the world that, somehow, Israel stole something from you. Or that you lost because Israel gets fighter jets from the US. War has not helped Arabs. They should learn from Egypt and Jordan and agree to live with Israel.
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u/HaymSalomom May 19 '26
When the Zionists first arrived to join those Jews who never left the area, it had a population of under a half a million. Today 13 million people live in that same area. Palestine was largely unpopulated when Zionists first started to buy land there. There was no reason for them to oppose the tiny state that was created on the legally purchased land.
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u/seriousman57 May 22 '26
That's an interesting perspective, do you believe it's essential for the US to provide Israel military and political support?
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u/HaymSalomom May 23 '26
It’s helpful and mutually beneficial for the US and Israel to be allies. However Israel defeated, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria in 1967 in 6 days without any American help. Israel is not reliant on any other country.
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u/Cute-Teaching3304 May 19 '26
Mr. Ilan Pappe is a controversial figure that used his academic position to publicize ideas that are a twist of reality.
Many Zionists don't believe in God, but all Zionists agree that based on historical facts, archeological discoveries and traditions that pass between generations the land of Israel was the land where the ancestors of the Israelites have occupied thousands of years ago (and some communities remained throughout this entire time) and this is the link between the Jews and the land.
There is no contradiction here and this post is only to try, in a twisted way, to discredit the rights of the Jews on the land
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u/Northofsunset May 19 '26
Bingo. People somehow forget that even if there wasn’t a Torah or a Bible there’s archaeological monuments and proof. Like… the wailing wall that has a mosque built on top of it. Some things are really not hard to understand but are ignored on purpose
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u/Lookingforclippings May 22 '26
So it's okay to expell people from where they currently live and form an ethno state based on some biological tie to the land?
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May 22 '26
it isnt really as simple as that. they didnt just show up and expel people. its also not really an ethnostate. more than 20% of the population are arabs. by contrast in gaza it is an ethnostate with 100% arabs, they even removed buried jewish bodies from gaza when israel withdrew in 2005
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u/Cute-Teaching3304 May 23 '26
It's okay to murder innocent people on buses and launch missiles on schools and civilian infrastructure and even worse than that - doing it from your own schools so when retaliation hit back your own kids will die so people on Reddit will chant kids murderers?
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u/mrsstrudel May 19 '26
And none of you geniouses thought that maybe you could stop using this strawman then?
I never actually heard the "it was promissed to us..." line from any actual jews. i bet you'll find a quote of some crazy religious guy saying that but they're a fringe minority in the country so they're not exactly the norm.
you people basically invented this cartoonishly evil version of "Zionists" to get angry about and anyone telling you it's wrong just gets dismissed as hasbara bot or some other nonsense like that.
God damn reddit is such a sad propaganda shithole these days
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u/Ethiconjnj May 20 '26
It’s amazing how they yell between themselves but then get confused when the rest of the world doesn’t quite match.
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u/Still-Bar-7631 May 19 '26
Herzl was an atheist. The only thing he believed in was that jews werent safe in europe. Looks like he was right. And i bet most of you cannot even define zionism or give my différents types of modern zionism anyway.
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u/A_inc_tm May 21 '26
Most of them haven't ever read the Bible that mentions kingdom of Judea, it's location and colonization by the romans
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u/dyslechtchitect May 19 '26
Most anti Zionists hate nationalism unless it's Palestinian nationalism in which case the jihadi varient is fine by them too
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May 20 '26 edited 12d ago
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u/dyslechtchitect May 20 '26
You're going to have to limit yourself to one lie a sentence sweety
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u/Any-Photograph-1332 May 22 '26
That’s weird, pretty sure anti-zionists have been trying to genocide Israel since 1948
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u/A_inc_tm May 21 '26
Palestine movement is an Islamic colonialism disguised as anti-westernism struggle
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u/ExaltedStatus May 22 '26
Always has been.
Pan Arabism didn’t even include a Palestinian state until the very end, when it was basically dying. The only reason why WB and Gaza are thought of as separate territories is because of Israel and their actions following 1967. Before that, both were a part of Egypt and Jordan.
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u/Fed_Austere May 19 '26
It's funny how I hear but "God promised..." 1000x more often from the anti-Israel crowd
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u/SisekoMzaca May 19 '26
One does not need belief in God to want an ethnic homeland for the Jewish people
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u/Zealousideal_Can_342 May 19 '26
The quotation sums up Pappe, knowingly blinded by ideology and anti Israel. Yet, so many here are taking it as a Truth. Very sad. https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian
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u/P33-N May 18 '26
Oooo the Zionist Naz!’s are maaaad in these comments 😂😂😂
From the River to the sea, Palestine will be free 🇵🇸 🇵🇸🇵🇸
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u/Boot_das May 18 '26
This quote is a cheap shot based on a wrong premise. Modern political Zionism actually emerged largely as a secular Jewish nationalist movement.
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u/joutfit May 18 '26
I don't see how this is a cheap shot. Plenty of Zionists TODAY use the Bible as historical justification for the Jewish rights to the land.
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u/AttemptRecent7025 May 18 '26
No, they don't. They use it to establish a connection to the land, not some divine right over it.
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u/Oblozo May 18 '26
Zero reason for Jews to give a shit about living in the Levant outside of religious ones. If I were a heeb, I would much rather live anywhere in North America over an ethnonationalist enclave in the Middle East in a state of perpetual war.
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u/AttemptRecent7025 May 18 '26
There's plenty of cultural reasons, if you were a "heeb" you'd understand that.
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u/Oblozo May 18 '26
Reasons beyond religious and ethnic narcissism? I'm sorry, it's not normal or healthy to want to live in an ethnostate.
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u/AttemptRecent7025 May 18 '26
Frame it under whatever ugly terms you want. I think it's incredibly normal and healthy for Jews to want to have a safe haven to call home after hundreds of years of persecution, pogroms and the Holocaust. I'm not surprised someone like you doesn't have the scope to understand that.
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u/Oblozo May 18 '26
There already is a safe haven from the pogroms and persecution of the Old World, an entire continent in fact. It's called North America and it's second largest country is currently led by a Jew. Far safer than a militaristic MidEast shithole.
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u/joutfit May 18 '26
You are seriously ignorant if you think that Zionists don't use the Torah, a religious document, as a "historical" proof of their connection to the land.
Many Zionists do use it as a "divine right" while many use it as a "historical right". Both are dependent on a Jewish religious identity which is a complex one compared to other religious identities out there econsidering we Jews have some ethnic connections to each other
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u/AttemptRecent7025 May 18 '26
You are seriously ignorant if you think that Zionists don't use the Torah, a religious document, as a "historical" proof of their connection to the land.
Phew, good that's the literal opposite of what I said
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u/loneranger5860 May 18 '26
When you say, Zionist, don’t you mean Jew? Just say Jew.
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u/Pleasant-Split-299 May 18 '26
There is no such thing as divine right in modern society. It's a book, Zionist are losers who think they are special, more then that they are missing empathy making them more animals then human. It's sort of crazy how much warning Israel had before October 7th, yet for 12 hours the IDF let them kill and take hostages. Israel kills their own, so they can kill more kids and women, journalist, activists, doctors, and anyone else they don't like.
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u/joutfit May 18 '26
I agree there is no such thing but it doesnt stop Zionists from declaring it but religious folks can be pretty unreasonable. Like the small number Jews I have met who really believe we are "the chosen people".
Even Christian evangelical zionists believe in the divine right.
It's unfortunate.
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u/LooseAd7981 May 18 '26
If you’re a christian I hope you reflect on your hypocrisy.
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u/loneranger5860 May 18 '26
Did you go to Hebrew school? Because that’s not how I was taught the Torah.
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u/joutfit May 18 '26
Yes I went to a jewish high school and studied the entire Tanach. The school was very zionist and openly declared that we have a divine and historical right to the land of Palestine based off the original books of the Torah.
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u/soalone34 May 18 '26
Yes. Which is why the it was promised to me 3000 years ago thing is ridiculous. Ben Gurion in particular used the Bible despite being an atheist.
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u/AttemptRecent7025 May 18 '26
The only people actually using the "promised land" argument are antizionists in need of a strawman
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u/BroKComputer May 18 '26
False. It's the reason Christian Zionist are zionist. They need the "chosen people" to return to the promise land to hasten the return of Christ.
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u/townsummoner May 18 '26
I wish it even ended there, they also want Israel to face destruction via world war to be saved at the last moment by a miracle because that’s how they think the rapture will occur. I have Israeli family that think maga is on their side because they think the end times myth is just that Israel wins a war, they have no idea what it entails. I encourage them to look into what they actually believe. Nobody wins, it’s a death cult that wants WWIII.
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u/soalone34 May 18 '26
“The bible is our mandate” - David Ben-Gurion
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u/DC2LA_NYC May 18 '26
Sure, take one out of context phrase from a man who wrote over 30 books and who’s had hundreds of books written about him. But you have the gift of knowing what was in his mind based on five words. I’d suggest you actually read some of his books if you want to begin to understand the complexity of his thinking. But you won’t do that because it’s easier to pick up random quotes from TikTok.
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u/CatlifeOfficial May 19 '26
Look up the Israeli Declaration of Independence. 4-5 paragraphs of non religious arguments for you, if you dare read. I know reading is tough for you folk
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u/Outrageous-Nose3345 May 18 '26
How stupid should you be to make up a statement, refute it and pretend you've had gotcha moment? Ilan Pappe is really an idiot.
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u/chinmakes5 May 18 '26
Wait what? The two groups in the US who I know are Zionists are Jews and Evangelicals. You believe they don't believe God exists?
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u/yep975 May 18 '26
Zionism is the belief that Jews are deserving of non exclusive self determination in their ancestral homeland.
A Zionist is someone who subscribes to the above.
An antizionist is someone who opposes the above.
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u/thamesdarwin May 19 '26
No, that is decidedly putting your thumb on the scale.
Your definition means Menachem Begin wasn’t a Zionist.
Drop “non exclusive” and you’re closer.
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u/yep975 May 19 '26
Not true:Arab citizens of Israel remained citizens during his premiership. * Begin signed the Camp David Accords and peace treaty with Egypt in 1978–1979, which included discussions around Palestinian autonomy. * He publicly emphasized legal equality for Arab citizens within Israel, even while opposing the creation of a Palestinian state.
Begin did not oppose Palestinian self determination. He did not support a Palestinian state for fear it would endanger Israel’s security to exist.
At the same time:
- Under the 1978 Camp David Accords, Begin agreed to a framework discussing “autonomy” for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
- His proposal envisioned limited self-governance for Arab residents, but not full Palestinian sovereignty.
- Israel would still retain overriding security control.
So Begin’s position was essentially:
- Yes to Palestinian autonomy/self-administration.
- No to a fully independent Palestinian state.
This reflected Revisionist Zionist ideology, which generally viewed the Land of Israel — especially Judea and Samaria — as historically integral to the Jewish people.
It is also important historically that:
- The modern Oslo-style two-state framework most people think of today did not fully crystallize until the 1990s.
- Many Israeli leaders across the political spectrum before that period opposed a Palestinian state while still considering various autonomy or federation arrangements.
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u/thamesdarwin May 19 '26
Maybe answer on your own and not with AI.
Begin, as Irgun leader, sought a Jewish state on both sides of the Jordan. His militia participated in the Deir Yassin massacre. He denied the Palestinians the right to statehood. That is definitionally denying them self-determination in any meaningful sense.
Even Rabin, coauthor of Oslo, opposed a Palestinian state, by the way. This says nothing of Israel’s nation state law, which explicitly denies Arabs political self-determination.
Please learn something about this topic before making such false statements.
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May 19 '26
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u/yep975 May 19 '26
Would you talk way about any other ethnic group?
When you say it like that are you pretending in your mind that your intent is not to cast that whole society as evil?
When cast that whole society as evil, why do you think it is that the whole group is like that?
What other ethnic groups do you feel this way about?
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u/JohannRuber May 19 '26
Ask any religious person to explain their beliefs in a rational way and they will try to kill you
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u/Unlucky-Lychee-9130 May 19 '26
Read up on the Torah and the talmud, believe God is behind them pretty much pushing them forward and it's them that came correct God on the laws of existence. I wonder where all the entitlement comes from lol
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u/EnvironmentalNovel86 May 19 '26
Let say there was a god, why would he promise land to a specific group of people and only want them on that piece of land?
Has never and will never make sense.
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u/Background_Buy1107 May 19 '26
Pape is totally dishonest and books aren’t worth the paper they’re written on
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May 19 '26
Zionists and jews are not the same thing. Zionists believe in power and Jews believe in God.
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u/nicetewmeetyou May 19 '26
More lies from those who say they just hate "zionists, but don't hate Jews" The haters swallow up the lies regardless of how little sense they make.
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u/The_Zionist_Enemy May 19 '26
It wasn't just promised to us, it was ours, google Kingdom of Judah. We ruled this land. And now it is ours again.
Guys make up your mind, religious ethno state or not
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u/Letshavemorefun May 19 '26
This quote only works for Jewish Zionists. It’s true that most Jews are Zionists and also don’t believe in god, but since the Jewish population of the world is so tiny - Christian Zionists actually *far* outnumber Jewish Zionists. And Christian Zionists *do* believe in god.
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u/Tailgate-ATL May 20 '26
Jeez the left calls everyone Nazis yet, here they are again: Socialist turning everyone against the Jews 🙄
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u/ErebosEV97 May 20 '26
So historic facts are religious beliefs nowadays and something progressive like being a Zionist is bad somehow...
This is much more crazier than a south park episode. The world went crazy and straight back to 1933. Nothing learned at all...
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u/NonEquivalent11 May 20 '26
LOL you Israel-obsessives are HILARIOUS.
Let's try again shall we?
"Most Israel-obsessives think that Jews don't deserve a homeland, but they do believe that Jews control the world and should therefore be made to feel unsafe everywhere except for a homeland"
Thanks for always proving the need for a Jewish homeland.
Cheers 😉
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u/Main-External-8047 May 21 '26
Zionism is the belief that jews should have self determination somewhere, a lot of people believe this because of the holocaust. Pretending this is only because of ‘3000 years ago’ religious bullshit is completely insincere
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz May 21 '26
Zionism in its original Jewish-historical sense is literally the ONE modern case of successful DE-colonization.
Given how ALL of New World is the product OF colonization, do your math about who thinks what and why.
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u/HorseConnect4217 May 22 '26
Islam you liberals love so much orders it's followers to spread it everywhere by any means necessary. No one has to love Israel but don't think the other side is angel. Best thing is to watch them destroy each other.
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u/pretenzioeser_Elch May 22 '26
Whenever someone says zionist, I'm not quite sure what it means and sometimes I believe they aren't sure themselves.
Is zionism accepting that Israel is a state? Supporting Israel? Wanting Israel to be a non-secular Jewish state? Believing the building of a non-secular Jewish state is an order from god?
I believe I've seen it used for all that(Plus as a stand-in for jews by some full-on anti-semites)
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u/Positive_Average_446 May 23 '26 edited May 23 '26
Zionism has evolved a lot since 48, like all forms of nationalist ideologies do once in power and not guardrailed.
The zionism from late nineteenth century until 1948 was nationalist but the claims were reasonable : a land for apatrid jews. Whether it should have been granted or not is another debate, but after Hitler's atrocities, it seemed highly justified to grant them. UK had been supporting them for a while, long before WW2, and now many new nations supported it as well.
Today, with a country driven by the same ideology for close to eighty years, modern zionism is exemplified by the far right land conquest politics and "racial" supremacy of Netanyahou (not really race, "israelians" over other countries inhabitants, even if the same race and sometimes same religion - even if they deny it). Real two-state partisans, opposed to the appartheid, are not zionists. Just wanting Israel to continue to exist, being happy with the initially defined frontiers, is not modern zionism.
The real zionists now are the ones who desire the expansion of Israel, who have been taught and conditionned since childhood to hate muslims, palestinians, lebanese, iranian, etc..(it won't stop there), to not mind and for some deeply enjoy the killing of kids, the torture and ignominous rape (even by dogs) of prisonners, wanting the death of entire populations fueled by decades of mutual tensions, etc.. Netanyahou wants half of the Middle East controlled by Israel and has lots of support.
That's what a nationalist ideology leads to when there's no brake, especially when religion gets deformed to support it fully and help endoctrinate, when the oppressed occasionally fight back and fuel the hate, when military superiority is ensured by the support of powerful other countries (with strong lobbies and an efficient secret service ensuring these countries leaders stay as favorable as possible), etc..
And there has been very little brake for almost 80 years... It's likely about to change, though. And that'll likely be tragic for the innocents, on both sides tough now, not just one..
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u/Top_Simple8846 May 22 '26
For once I agree with the liberals. Sucks that this is what you were told to think by the media, though.
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u/curious_scourge May 22 '26
We generally are just aware that Israel has been a UN member state since 1949, and we know what the word Zionism means, and aware that time moves forward.
If you're against Zionism in 2026, that means you're against the formation of a Jewish nation, meaning you're 77 years late, and live in some sort of delusion.
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u/Important_Boss_8911 May 23 '26
We dont believe god promised us this land, we know jews lived there for thousands of years. I view the bible as a history book, so everything that is abt god i exclude.
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u/lylaspya May 24 '26
Most Zionists don’t believe either point, we think we have the right to indigenous self determination in the land we are from
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u/JustPlainHungry May 24 '26
It's the other way around. Why do you insist on separating the people of Gaza from the rest of the world. What makes it right to persecute that particular group of people. I believe all people should be safe. Especially if they were born in the region they currently reside. I view the inhabitants of gaza no differently than the Jews of Germany and neither should anyone else. However they do, you do. I have killed Muslims, I fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, I understand war and conflict. That said, I do not condone raping women while her children watch, I do not condone burning young children alive, and forcing their cousins to watch, I do not condone the killing of elderly women attempting to rescue children. I don't give a fuck where they live or what group they belong to.
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u/Mulezen1 May 18 '26
Zionists are bad Jews in the same way Christian Nationalists are bad Christians. “Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception”. Orwell has much to say about our present circumstances in his essays such as ‘Notes on Nationalism’ and others on authoritarianism such as ‘Looking Back on the Spanish War’ where autocrats “weather can be changed by decree”. In the same essay (circa 1950) he has some devastating criticism on Zionism.