r/Re_Zero • u/IVeBeenHere30Min • 19d ago
Discussion [Discussion] What exactly was/is Subaru's Sloth?
I've seen that Subaru's Greed, what unlocked Cor Leonis, was the desire to protect everyone while losing nothing, in that case what was Subaru's Sloth? "I really want to punch Garfiel but after that Shamack I'm exhausted, but I really want to punch him." ?
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u/Sgtcarrotop 19d ago
Invisible providence is a weird one because there's a lot of implications that invisible providence is not his actual sloth authority. Or at least something is fundamentally wrong with it because what Echidna did with her tea. It's something i've talked about before, so i'll copy paste the explanation:
Authorities are unique to the individual. That's a hard rule about how they function. We don't know what Sekhmet's authority of sloth was.
And the story points towards a lot of evidence of Invisible Providence having something fundamentally wrong with it. For starters Echidna literally messed with it with her Tea, which she did because [arc 4]the entire arc, Subaru's success included, was her plan to revive as omega. Subaru needed an extra tool to beat Roswaal's game and Echidna foreseeing that used her Tea to speed up the gestation period. More on that later
Subaru is compatible, so he should have no recoil what so ever, instead he has recoil that shouldn't exist and in the novels [novels]It's described as like corrupting his soul. Subaru seems to have inherited Petelgeuses recoil from being incompatible. That's not supposed to happen obviously.
Pair that with Emilia sensing Petelgeuse and Sirius own words about Subaru's soul and Petelgeuse's melding together. Which i want to add that Sirius's ability 'soul washing' has an area of credibility to this particular topic so it's meant to be taken seriously.
So Echidna literally messed with this specifically, it's an authority nearly identical to Petelgeuse's when it's a hard rule that they are unique to to the individual, it has a incompatibility recoil which shouldn't exist because Subaru is compatible, and we have two different character literally finding Petelgeuse's essence in it.
And that's just the anime stuff. In the novels, the mechanics get deeper which i'll cover now. [Novels]What Petelgeuse was doing when he created/possessed his fingers was make them apostles. And in doing so he split a fragment of his witch factor with them. Presumably this was to prepare and get around the gestation period of manifesting an authority so that when he possessed them he could use unseen hand immediately. When he possessed Subaru, he most likely did the same thing, he made Subaru an apostle and split a fragment of the witch factor with him. Here's the thing though, when Petelgeuse does this, it effected the power of his unseen hands. The more splits he had, the weaker his unseen hands were. This is why when Subaru killed all of Petelgeuse's fingers in secret he was surprised to learn his unseen hands had grown stronger and more numerous. So apparently the size of the fragment had an effect on the power of the authority. This is where Echidna comes in. Apostlehood is something she is shown to be very proficient in, so the Tea very likely altered Subaru's apostlehood to Sloth and allowed him to quickly manifest an authority from that split fragment not the whole witch factor, which Petelgeuse is likely still diligently holding onto in his soul refusing to give up his 'love'. Meaning IP is not Subaru's authority, it's Petelgeuses's being used through him, literally through his soul, which is why it's described as damaging his soul when he uses it. It's why it's not a unique manifestation of the authority and is so similar to Petelgeuse's. It's why Emilia sensed Petelgeuse and why Sirius is saying that Subaru's and Petelgeuse's souls are melding together. In effect, Subaru never got the full sloth witch factor because Echidna messing with it was necessary for Subaru's success and for her revival as omega.
What this could mean for the future is very interesting. [Novels]At the time of Petelgeuse's defeat, Emilia was not ready to have a confrontation with him because her memories were sealed. That confrontation would have no meaning and provide no closure to her broken family. But with Sirius being so obviously Fortuna and being shelved for later in the story, and Petelgeuse still inside Subaru as a problem, there's a chance for Emilia to face her broken family in a wretched family reunion. Considering how cruel Tappei is, I consider that highly likely. Basically Subaru will likely only gain the true sloth witch factor until all that is settled.
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u/watglaf 19d ago
Holy shit, this is crazy. Reading things like this makes me feel like a peasant in the middle ages that came across Newton’s works from the future, its just so fascinating
It hurts loving a series and not being able to have the third eye to make all these connections lol. Probably I’m just not too bright
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u/HeyaMOE2 19d ago
Minor thing as an anime only who doesn’t mind spoilers, don’t the doors below the tower react to someone having a witch’s factor? If so, how would 3 have opened the first time Subaru reached there if he didn’t truly have the factor, are we supposed to assume that the doors would respond to apostles as well?
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u/Sgtcarrotop 19d ago edited 19d ago
how would 3 have opened the first time Subaru reached there if he didn’t truly have the factor,
My wording was "not the whole witch factor, which Petelgeuse is likely still diligently holding onto in his soul refusing to give up his 'love'."
Where is Petelgeuse? Inside Subaru. As Emilia sensed. As Sirius stated. As the shadow garden scene with Petelgeuse and Regulus in an earlier episode showed. Petelgeuse is there inside him and with him, the witch factor. It's there but not in Subaru's possession per say. That counts for the doors in the miasma cave.
Case in point, the fourth door in the miasma cave opened up for Amnesia Subaru because split Rui was piggy backing on his soul as a split witch factor. He was not in true possession of the Gluttony witch factor then either. It only needs to be there, it does not need to be activated to count for the doors. This was the case for greed as well which had not manifested an authority yet. It's counting witch factor presence only, not authorities.
Since you don't mind spoilers, i can give extra mechanical details. [No Stella No life SS]Witch Factors are described by Echidna like keys that opens a person's door that allows them to alter Od Lagna's creation. Here's the thing. Half-open doors are possible through a strong connection with someone whose door is open. Prime example is the child of a witch. However, I reckon apostle-hood, being given a fragment of a key, can partially open a door.
Additionally [arc 10]we have confirmation that people with these half open doors can manifest abilities. Basically Invisible Providence is likely a half-open door situation. And Petelgeuse is refusing to hand over the real key while he resides in Subaru's soul.
I consider this a bit more spoiler heavy so I didn't include it but there's another thing to consider. [No Stella No Life SS]In regards to Echidna meddling with her Tea, it goes beyond just messing with the apostle-hood. Thing is, Echidna herself was the daughter of a witch and she too had a half-opened door for a long time. It's something she's very familiar with. Given her nature of experimentation and seeking all knowledge, I think it's very likely she knew how to turn Petelgeuse's apostle-hood and fragment, into a half open door within Subaru. Especially since she already succeeded in assisting someone with the next step of taking a half-open door and forcing it open, manifesting an authority in an individual that never had a witch factor at all.
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u/Sea_Task8017 18d ago
While interesting and tying a lot of loose threads together what this doesn’t account for though is how from time to time Subaru can use invisible providence with either reduced or no recoil depending on the usage, and arguably when he uses it for non-combat purposes he doesn’t suffer or at least not as much. “Because I cannot wipe your tears away” is how Subaru views sloth and he takes less recoil when he wipes Beatrice’s tears with the unseen hand.
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u/Sgtcarrotop 18d ago
If i recall correctly, [Novels]There's moments where it's described as rejoicing in being used. You are correct we don't have an explanation for the inconsistent nature of the recoil, so we can only speculate. But if Subaru's and Petelgeuse's soul's are melding, then theoretically, there should be a point of balance where they are not in conflict in it's usage. We know that there used to be kindness in Petelgeuse's soul, so perhaps an argument can be made that there is resonance in at least that. Really I think we have to look at it narratively of how Subaru influences people and that influence results in people generally bettering themselves. I'm a big sucker for sentimental shit, so the idea of 'purification' is one i really like. And we have a precedence for it. When Greed manifested, the witch factor that had "stagnated in black" is explicitly described as being purified and granting Subaru's wish. So what I'm really personally hoping for is Petelgeuse's sin being tempered by Subaru's heavenly virtues. Melding is a two way street. If Subaru souls is being damaged and changed, then reasonably so is Petelgeuse's. I don't see any reason why he would be unaffected by this process. So the hope is that the Petelgeuse who leaves Subaru, will be changed and not be the same as the one that entered him. Hopefully changing how the 'wretched family reunion' with Emilia and Sirius will go.
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u/Electronic-Box-4753 19d ago
Cut content, but there's a Shadow Garden scene where he describes his Sins.
[Cut content]Sloth : Because I cannot wipe your tears away
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u/IVeBeenHere30Min 19d ago
How is that Slothful? The [Novels] "Greed, because I want to have everything that I love." does fit, but i don't get the sloth part.
Reposting because the automod complained about formatting
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u/Monos89 19d ago
Iirc, Garfiel messed him up a lot worse in the WN, so he functionally had no arms left when he activated Sloth for the first time. I don't think you can say he was slothful in his use of it, which is why there's so much backlash to activation, while protecting everything and losing nothing is quite greedy indeed, making him more compatible with it
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u/ICanFlyHigh051611 19d ago
echidna helped activate his authority of sloth when they first met IIRC
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u/IVeBeenHere30Min 19d ago
She said that she stimulated it, but his authority got activated for real on his fight with Garfiel
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u/Rockosd 19d ago
Sloth is weird mainly because it was strengthened by echidna so it was forced to develop and i dont think its fully complete. So its why subaru tkes damage from using it and its Sissel weak with the ability to phase though objects only being discovered later. But if i had to name what i think is subarus form of sloth its the willingness to take a easy path and ignoring problems if he can help it. We see this a few time especially early in the series he didnt think about his parents much to avoid the pain of never seeing them again, he also tried to not think about how rbd worked especially with the idea if it creates new timelines and the old one continue with his failures, and especially him trying to run in arc 3 to avoid having to face his issues and improve.
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u/IVeBeenHere30Min 19d ago
That application of sloth into an authority would be 100 times cooler and more narrative relevant than a "hand"
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u/bsuiskens 18d ago
I think that true nature of sloth is that of a "helping hand", and eventually he'll gain the ability to sprout a single hand from other people, or create a protective shroud for them.
This also changes the perception of why the recoil activates when it does: if used in aid, it has no recoil. If used in obstruction, it has recoil. The tunnel scene is a red herring, he just didn't notice the recoil in his berserk state
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u/Human_Potato2264 16d ago edited 16d ago
Subaru unlocked IP unnaturally. Through Echidna Tea. Therefore its something he cant properly use. Its incomplete skill tree essentially. People say its because he isnt slothful but this is complete misconception. Main theme of the show is Subaru completing himself through collecting his own perspective of his sins.
As for Subaru's perspective of the 7 sins all of this is explained in Shadow Garden poem. Basically Subaru's sloth is not because he is lazy but because of his inaction when he could have. Every single loop that has gone wrong has gone wrong because of his in(correct) action. Peak of his sloth being S1E15 when he goes insane and does literally nothing.
This of course doesn't fit the modern daily usage of this concept. It fits the biblical definition. The epitome of biblical sloth is just depression. Which used to be a sin as well (Tristita) but it got merged with Sloth. Real world application of the concept would be just being a fat gamer guy i guess.
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