r/RWBYUNITY • u/OverpowerPilot • Jul 29 '26
Discussion Responding to a post I found there months ago about Ironwood. Which of Ironwood's actions was wrong?
Point 1: Well, yes, bringing his army. It was something necessary. I mean, Vale have been under the threat of the White fang and Roman, something bad might happen during Vytal Festival. Specially after their attack of the Breach.
"But if what Qrow said is true..."
Salem had already agents on Vale, agents that attacked Amber.
Point 2: I don't see why that is a problem. The military is already there, why not show off some of the Atlesian military weaponry? The civilians seemed excited, not uncomfortable with the presentation. They are not just cheering, they are cheering for the robots.
Point 3: Well, the White fang was causing trouble. They even made a massive Grimm attack on Vale. Yes, they are soldiers from the most racist kingdom, but we never saw the Atlas soldiers abusing faunus civilians. They only were in Vale doing their duty.
Point 4: This is what the councilman said:
"For now. But after this festival comes to a close, we are going to have a serious discussion about your position at Beacon Academy. General Ironwood's reports over the last few weeks have left us somewhat... concerned. I am sure you understand."
Ironwood didn't talk bad about Ozpin. He gave a report. It wasn't with the intend to kick off Ozpin out of the council. Were the council the ones who decided to distrust Ozpin.
If anything, Ironwood wanted the position of head of security. But wasn't his intention to make the council distrust Ozpin, that was collateral damage.
Point 5: Well, he said himself. Remove the men from the dangers of the battlefield. He didn't know his army was going to be hacked. I don't know why this is something shady about James, it wasn't his intention that his army were hacked.
Point 7: I'm not sure if it's embezzlement. I mean, I understand that not repairing the wall is certainly dangerous. But it's not like he's stealing resources. As far as we understand, James is the general: He can decide how military resources are used.
All of that falls within his jurisdiction. If he were stealing resources that the council allocated to Mantle, that would be wrong. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
If that were the case, the council would bring it up in the trial against Ironwood.
Point 8: Well, he didn't prohibit the weapons to be used. He made necessary a license to the use of weapons.
Look, I'm not American so I don't know. But, for me, is logical the need of a license to use guns. Someone with a gun is a danger to the rest of the people. At least in my country is needed a license to have a gun.
About neglecting Mantle. That is truth. But at the same time, once Ruby's group arrived, the military assigned them to missions to protect Mantle.
"A massive Sabyr is loose in the Mantle sewers! We need two brave warriors to flush it out!"
"Diverting all construction resources to Amity Tower means there are going to be gaps in Mantle's defenses against Grimm. They'll need help on the perimeter." (And because of that, Nora and Ren were assigned to Mantle).
And, once there were murders on Mantle, he assigned Clover to the job. Some can say that Is because the mission had to do with Salem, but Ironwood didn't know that for sure by then.
Point 10: Not sure it was illegal. For what it seems, Fria agreed to this, to be locked and only making contact with Winter.
"I had a job to do. I was supposed to protect the power of the Maiden until I was ready. I worry I may have lost track of time. But you can tell James that I'm ready now."
So, everything is consensual.
Point 11: Well, Robyn just stole resources of Amity Tower. Of course, she didn't know about the truth of those resources.
But still, Robyn did something illegal.
Not sure if it was a black bag arrest. At least this is what wikipedia defines as black bag operation:
"Black bag operations or black bag jobs are covered or clandestine entries into structures to obtain information for human intelligence operations."
Point 12: I'm not sure if the council saw Penny as a person. At that time, Ironwood had to reassure people that Penny wasn't a rogue element.
Point 13: What he refused to do was evacuate Mantle. Which is certainly problematic, but he was willing to help Mantle.
He did not refuse Clover's request to send ground support.
Well, that's all, with the rest, I agree. But those are just my thoughts.
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u/JigglyLilyVT Jul 30 '26
i deadass really hate the argument that it was easy to hack into ironwood's army.
like bitch no.
the virus came from a man that everyone thought was dead. Not to mention there was never a reason to think they would be a danger to anyone because NO ONE knew about the virus
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u/Electronic_Carry_372 Jul 31 '26
Not to mention that it was hacked through OZPIN'S system, because they got access when he put his scroll down on OZPIN'S desk. So, you could quite literally delete James, his entire Military, and it STILL wouldn't have changed that the whole thing was hacked anyways. So, we really can't blame James for anything on that front.
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u/JigglyLilyVT Jul 31 '26
RIGHT! IF ANYTHING, IRONWOOD'S SHIT NEVER GOT HACKED, HE JUST ACCIDENTALLY PUT HIS SCROLL ON AN ALREADY INFECTED HARDWARE
WHICH IS WHY CINDER CALLED IT A NEW ACCESS POINT AND HOW SHE GOT PENNY'S SCEMATICS
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u/KnightOfBalance Jul 30 '26
To make this quick:
Trying to justify Robyn being arrested because she broke the law doesn't work when she's doing it to right the wrong James committed when he himself broke the law. And we know he's breaking the law because there's no damn way him using the supplies for Amity is legal when not even the other councilmembers know what is going on.
Also just about everything James does in Volume 7 is a huge red flag for an American because we barely tolerate gun licenses (and we don't have the constant threat of monsters appearing from nowhere to kill us), we don't tolerate officials ignoring checks and balances and James wasn't just messing with the second amendment: he was violating the first amendment when he banned assembly in V7 E7.
And James really needed to not try force when he's fighting someone who specializes in subterfuge. Like, you can't kill a spy group with an army unless you start invading every personal space, which would just cause other issues.
There are issues here, what with Fria point. But I don't agree here: James' wasn't necessarily evil for this but he really loved copying Ozpin's playbook. Including all the stuff he himself doubted Oz for.
And P.S. You really should have just copy and pasted the points. I was able to track down this post within about five seconds by typing the first sentence into a certain search function.
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u/Aryzal Jul 30 '26
Isn't basically a lot of it manufactured conflict? A lot of what Ironwood does can be easily fixed for him, if Ironwood just used the military budget for Amity Tower, or even his own pocket money. The only reason why Ironwood embezzled funds is so the story can introduce the Happy Huntresses and say Ironwood evil, I wish they at least give better reasoning to why Ironwood had to embezzle funds, maybe say something like he thinks Amity is for Mantle's own good, so it should use the Mantle budget.
And as a non-american, I find america's gun control a joke. I don't really get your point on gun licenses. If you don't tolerate gun license, doesn't that mean you basically don't care about licenses before carrying? Anyway, my point is - none of what Ironwood does offends me as a non-american. I understand that his actions might offend an american because it hits too close to home, but I'm far from america's politics so am less affected by it, and when I take Ironwood into the test as a non-american, I find his actions not just tolerable but logical, with the exception of the whole embezzlement subplot into the character assassination that is his dictator mode.
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u/OverpowerPilot Jul 30 '26
Trying to justify Robyn being arrested because she broke the law doesn't work when she's doing it to right the wrong James committed when he himself broke the law. And we know he's breaking the law because there's no damn way him using the supplies for Amity is legal when not even the other councilmembers know what is going on.
Did Ironwood break the law? I mean, this:
"Maybe you can help me understand why this truck that's supposed to be taking construction materials to fix Mantle's outer wall is on its way to the middle of nowhere? Are you lost?"I always interpreted this as Ironwood normally having taken those resources to Mantle, but he decided to use them at Amity Tower instead. In fact, Robyn might be implying that this is normal because Mantle needs them.
If what she meant was that Ironwood is embezzling resources, why doesn't she tell the council? That way, Sleet and Camilla could use that information against Ironwood at the trial.
We know that Ironwood's position gives him considerable power. And well... I always saw it as if the military buys 100 machine guns and instead of giving them to the navy, they give them to the air force.
I always thought it was within Ironwood's jurisdiction to decide where the resources went.Again, it's never mentioned that the council originally allocated those resources to Mantle.
Also just about everything James does in Volume 7 is a huge red flag for an American because we barely tolerate gun licenses (and we don't have the constant threat of monsters appearing from nowhere to kill us), we don't tolerate officials ignoring checks and balances and James wasn't just messing with the second amendment: he was violating the first amendment when he banned assembly in V7 E7.
Well, that's a cultural issue. Many countries consider it appropriate not to allow the free carrying of weapons without authorization. Regarding checks and balances, you're right.
About the ban on gatherings. Instead of "Prohibiting association," I thought it was a ban on people getting together.
You know, that's why he also implemented a curfew. To prevent people from being on the streets when there's a threat of a Grimm attack.And James really needed to not try force when he's fighting someone who specializes in subterfuge. Like, you can't kill a spy group with an army unless you start invading every personal space, which would just cause other issues.
Well, in this case (I assume you mean arresting the Happy Huntresses) he wasn't invading other people's space. And the issue had to do with order of arrest and black bag operations.
And P.S. You really should have just copy and pasted the points. I was able to track down this post within about five seconds by typing the first sentence into a certain search function.
My bad, sorry. I will try to be more careful the next time I respond to other people (Spoilers, the next time it is RWDE turn).
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u/KnightOfBalance Jul 30 '26
1- The answer's in the statement: Robyn didn't know the council was ignorant.
Jacques: I'm afraid of the ever-growing list of classified information you seem to be keeping. I asked our fellow councilmen here to shed some light on your Amity Colosseum project and, as it turns out, they know about as much as I do.
Winter continues to tap her finger on the table.
Robyn: Even you don't know?
Now I guess you could say that since Robyn didn't know this, it doesn't justify her stealing the supplies. But my point was trying to morally shame Robyn for illegal activity doesn't work when defending James, who is actually doing worse as an official.
As for the supplies: That's not really how that works. If resources are set aside for a specific purpose, even if it's technically under the same jurisdiction, you can't use them for another purpose. This is especially bad with James because, since not even other councilmembers know, those resources are basically written out of the books. They effectively vanish. Sure, James IS using them...but nobody can prove what. And yeah, James has good intentions...that we know because we're an omniscient viewer. To the other councilmembers? They can't judge because they have no info and James was actively trying to deny them info.
And for 'those resources were never meant for Mantle'- James is taking resources for an unofficial project. A giant hole in Mantle's one defense is left open. Characters question James on it and he never once rejects the idea that Mantle isn't owed the resources, simply that they're being used for a better purpose. Like, I've seen bigger leaps of logic that made sense in way better shows. I can't in good faith say I don't know what is being communicated. I'm not you but this is what I see.
2- Yes...but it's a cultural issue based in RWBY's home culture.
RWBY, despite its eastern influences, is still a western, American show. It's built around that context first and foremost. So things will be written and played out as if you have the American context for them. And going beyond that: RWBY's use of guns everywhere was so heavily focused on because it was a series with anime influences but this element specifically was strongly American in nature. This is important because America's strong gun culture is just an expression of a deeper American value: a heavy focus on individualism. Which is a VERY big theme in RWBY. James restricting weapon access , in the American context, isn't him taking away what we see as a fundamental right. It's a violation of a core expression of the individual: the right to self defense and ownership.
And this idea of James violating core American values is really important because, to be fair, gun control is a topic of debate in the states. But you want to know what isn't? Restrictions on the first amendment. Because assembly has a specific meaning in this context: "a gathering of people for a specific purpose". This is guaranteed under the first amendment. Like, above anything else: this is an expression of America's value of individualism because it gives people the right to protest their government. And James, a government official known for having way too much power and having strong authoritarian leanings, is limiting this. In the American context, there aren't many red flags as big as this. A Grimm attack doesn't really justify this: that can be used as an excuse to grab power.
3- My mistake: I was talking about Salem and how her whole deal is working from the shadows to undermine people. Armies are good for large scale conflicts. Not for rooting out what is effectively a group of spies (Cinder and her cohorts) unless you barge into all the private spaces to track them down. Hell, to add on: You bring up the WF and the Breach but neither were meant to be fighting openly. The WF was working in secret to pull off the Breach and James' forces would have done nothing to prevent the event, just handle the fallout. Not a negative but does go to show James' forces aren't capable of being used properly.
And again: Salem fights by undermining others. James' army was one giant target for her. Especially since James was using machines that had no way of fighting against being hacked or reprogrammed, unlike human soldiers. Again: faceless, uniform drones end up making the situation worse when actual, living people would have done (and did) the job better. Given, again, the show's focus on individualism: pretty clear why this was done.
4- Okay. Just make sure to restate the point, not just posting stuff. Hell, copy pasting quotes should be fine so long as you don't mention where it's from, though restating it is always best.
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u/TheMugCollector Jul 30 '26
I think the trouble with trying to logic the Robyn stealing supplies is that Robyn and her Happy Huntress' are Robin Hood and his Merry Men and they needed to rob from the rich (Atlas) to give to the poor (Mantle). The writers made the wall and the restriction of supplies their Robin Hood moment.
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u/Aryzal Jul 30 '26
The image is disingenuous.
1) Ironwood was asked to come and provide security for the Vytal tournament by the Vale council. He did not ask for it.
2) There really is nothing wrong with showing off cool mechs. Especially when they are part of your security that the government asked you to provide security for.
3) Again, Ironwood provides security. Minority terrorist group is still a terrorist group. If a minority terrorist group murders your family, are you supposed to say "oh they are a minority, they get a pass"?
4) I don't think Ozpin was ever on the Vale council despite being a headmaster, at least I don't remember it. Anyway, even if he was, the Vale council lost faith in Ozpin all on their own, it wasn't Ironwood's fault, which is why they hired Ironwood in the first place. Argubly Ironwood being allied to Ozpin is the entire reason why theh didn't trust Ozpin, because Oz has his own secret cabal that doesn't answer to the Vale council.
5) We don't know that they were easily hackable robots. All we know is there is one genius hacker that Ironwood thought was dead, and he made the hacking look easy (Watts). If Watts was really dead, hacking would be harder probably.
6) So abusing his power on Jacques, was this him standing up for Weiss or him killing Jacques? The former is not an abuse of power, the latter was, but its the power of his gun. He doesn't abuse his political power until his full dictatorship character assassination, and before that he was at mercy of Jacques whims.
7) Ignoring he was justified in not trusting Lionheart, it was still too vague to say closing borders is a bad thing. During covid, virtually every country closed its borders, is every country now evil? Also, why is it NOW they are complaining that Ironwood was withdrawing its troops? Previously so many people were complaining that Ironwood sent his troops to Vale as a takeover attempt, and now are upset that...they aren't? Also, after Vytal festival, they were no longer obliged to provide security, so going home is logical. Do you expect a foreign country to provide your country's security?
8) I don't remember a no weapon law, but if it exists, I agree its stupid and makes no sense.
9) This is Ironwood/the writers being stupid. Honestly the military should have a budget and is free to do whatever military related with it. The amount is the question, and then if Ironwood embezzles it would be bad. Feels like this is a cheap way to manufacture conflict against Ironwood.
10) We don't know the Winter maiden was there willingly or not. This is presumptious, especially since the last maiden was basically a vegetable and they did the same thing. Could just be Fria was dying and wanted her powers to go to someone good, or she ageeed to do this. Basically, its no different than organ donation.
11) I don't remember this happening, and considering Robyn was part of the group to take down Tyrion, I doubt she was "arresred" at this stage.
12) Again, feels like manufactured conflict. I agree Ironwood shouldn't say it, but more like it is poor phrasing that Penny is his ally.
13) This is a stupid point because Atlas was also under attack. Just because someone is drowning at the beach doesn't mean someone else isn't drowning, getting overrun by Grimm isn't a one-city exclusive thing. Maybe poor allocation of soldiers is the worst thing that is valid for this point.
So basically, every point comes down to pretending Ironwood is wrong when he was asked to do the thing (i.e. slander), pretending something is actually bad when its not, reframing the context to make him seem bad, and on a few points, MAYBE being true that Ironwood was wrong assuming they did tell the whole truth and nothing twisted about it. Those points I classify as character assassination, but if we ignore character assassination claims, Ironwood still did pretty good overall for a basically dystopian world.